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Post your Frustrations.

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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:53 am

Worldie wrote:I lost the track of reality again and ended up spending again a lot of money almost for nothing.

Sometimes I wonder if i'm suffering from some sort of disturb that makes me spend a ton of money when I got it >.<


Get married, having money to spend won't be a problem anymore.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:11 am

That could be another notch on worldie's belt. Marriage Breaker.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nordix » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:46 am

patchnotes:
Protection and Retribution: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective.

Glyph of the Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to no longer heal the Paladin. Instead, a nearby raid or party member will receive healing for 30% of the amount the Paladin would have received from Seal of Insight.


Its like,will these protpaladin nerfs ever end? Can we stop at a level so I can still tank 5man instances please? cuz so far its been nerfs on nerfs only.dps,survivability,everything.Every new ptr build carves out a bit more of paladintank viability and we'Ll end up like we were in DS and my guild will get rid of me in favor of other classes.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:08 am

Nordix wrote:patchnotes:
Protection and Retribution: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective.

Glyph of the Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to no longer heal the Paladin. Instead, a nearby raid or party member will receive healing for 30% of the amount the Paladin would have received from Seal of Insight.


Its like,will these protpaladin nerfs ever end? Can we stop at a level so I can still tank 5man instances please? cuz so far its been nerfs on nerfs only.dps,survivability,everything.Every new ptr build carves out a bit more of paladintank viability and we'Ll end up like we were in DS and my guild will get rid of me in favor of other classes.


You're supposed to be playing a monk.. overall monk numbers are low.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:23 am

You do realize that having the same player top both the damage done, damage taken and healing done meter at same time is kinda, broken eh?
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:31 am

Worldie wrote:You do realize that having the same player top both the damage done, damage taken and healing done meter at same time is kinda, broken eh?


Meant monk population numbers.. :-)

Monks are getting a whole bunch of adjustments too, so who knows..
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nordix » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:42 am

Instead,paladin tanks will win the damage taken meters only,but by a lot:D
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:39 pm

With 90%+ uptime on Shotr I don't see that happening.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Treck » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:53 pm

Nordix wrote:Its like,will these protpaladin nerfs ever end? Can we stop at a level so I can still tank 5man instances please? cuz so far its been nerfs on nerfs only.dps,survivability,everything.Every new ptr build carves out a bit more of paladintank viability and we'Ll end up like we were in DS and my guild will get rid of me in favor of other classes.

Beeing one of the best tanks atm if not THE best all around tank isnt to good?
Even WITH these nerfs our position as the strongest tank (arguably only rivaled by monks atm) wont even be touched. We wont go from best to worst.
Paladin tanks scale very well with the gear we have now, reaching redicioulus numbers with haste.
Paladins were designed to benefit from haste, not to be stacking it, thusly were designed around NOT having 3sec SS, but rather closer to 6sec.
These changes are so that rather than making SS stop benefiting from haste, its slightly less effective.

Every single fucking patch is about tuning the numbers to the NEW itemlevels, so that people dont go to crazy when new gear comes out and that completely breaks shit.

Nordix wrote:Instead,paladin tanks will win the damage taken meters only,but by a lot:D

First of all, even if that WOULD to become true (and it wont) you are looking at the wrong meter, in fact a meter that is as interesting to look at as the mana gained meter.

The new "tanks do shitloads of dps" have completely clouded so many peoples view of what the tank does in a raid.
Total damage taken for the whole fight is a completely irrelevant metric to look for unless you are comparing two tanks of the same class, and even then its pretty irrelevant.
What you want to be looking at is spike reduction and smoothness in the dmg intake.
Id rather take 3 attacks that are all reduced by 50%, than take one hit and avoid the other two, even if the first scenario means you are taking overall more damage.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:25 pm

Treckie can you have my babies? <3
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nordix » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:21 am

Treck wrote:
Nordix wrote:Its like,will these protpaladin nerfs ever end? Can we stop at a level so I can still tank 5man instances please? cuz so far its been nerfs on nerfs only.dps,survivability,everything.Every new ptr build carves out a bit more of paladintank viability and we'Ll end up like we were in DS and my guild will get rid of me in favor of other classes.

Beeing one of the best tanks atm if not THE best all around tank isnt to good?
Even WITH these nerfs our position as the strongest tank (arguably only rivaled by monks atm) wont even be touched. We wont go from best to worst.
Paladin tanks scale very well with the gear we have now, reaching redicioulus numbers with haste.
Paladins were designed to benefit from haste, not to be stacking it, thusly were designed around NOT having 3sec SS, but rather closer to 6sec.
These changes are so that rather than making SS stop benefiting from haste, its slightly less effective.

Every single fucking patch is about tuning the numbers to the NEW itemlevels, so that people dont go to crazy when new gear comes out and that completely breaks shit.

Nordix wrote:Instead,paladin tanks will win the damage taken meters only,but by a lot:D

First of all, even if that WOULD to become true (and it wont) you are looking at the wrong meter, in fact a meter that is as interesting to look at as the mana gained meter.

The new "tanks do shitloads of dps" have completely clouded so many peoples view of what the tank does in a raid.
Total damage taken for the whole fight is a completely irrelevant metric to look for unless you are comparing two tanks of the same class, and even then its pretty irrelevant.
What you want to be looking at is spike reduction and smoothness in the dmg intake.
Id rather take 3 attacks that are all reduced by 50%, than take one hit and avoid the other two, even if the first scenario means you are taking overall more damage.


I think we are very good this tier because of how we can abuse most fightmechanics and how most fights revolve around heavy hits we can use SoTR for->onto this comes the insane scaling of SS and haste's interaction with it.
Realize,next tier has 90% of the boss abilities tagged with that string that makes you unable to immune it with bubble or HoP.
Realize,they already nerfed vengeance with various caps and gains and now the SS 30% nerf is on top of those->I think it's more than 30% overall nerf.My rough prediction is we'll be reaching current values(5.2) in top gear again.
Realize that paladin dps isnt that great compared to monks and that other tanks got buffed too with a passive called Riposte among other things. The new GC proc is going to be broken on any fight where we can tank multiple adds and the boss or just adds (Monk winning crane kick still better by a mile for dpsing them down tho),yet it will be completely useless on a fight where the boss keeps casting stuff a lot instead of hitting you (like jikun f.ex) or doesn't even have meleeswings ,just spams your face with magic (lei shi).
Damage smoothing is king,and I don't have any meters besides omen,nor do I care much for them,I want to kill the boss,not kill it while looking badass with explosions in the background while riding a dragon while winning on 5 different meters. There is a difference between smoothing from 500k to average 250,halving,or from 500k to 400k.

What I ultimately DON'T understand,is WHY all these nerfs instead of fixing our broken 4set so we can't keep up sotr 100%.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:39 am

Nordix wrote:What I ultimately DON'T understand,is WHY all these nerfs instead of fixing our broken 4set so we can't keep up sotr 100%.

Essentially cause a large majority of the normal+ raiding Prot Palas think that T15 is shit cause it has no haste, hence likely Blizzard doesn't care of that 1% Prot palas who actually have a brain and use it.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nordix » Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:03 am

Core of T15 set issue is the very underwhelming 4set bonus I think.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:15 am

It's that set bonus that allows for 90%+ shor uptime so I don't see how it is underwhelming.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Treck » Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:34 am

Nordix wrote:I think we are very good this tier because of how we can abuse most fightmechanics and how most fights revolve around heavy hits we can use SoTR for->onto this comes the insane scaling of SS and haste's interaction with it.

SS does do a lot of dmg reduce, but its hardly what breaks much.
Its the reliability of SotR with high haste that breaks the class.
And SotR working on everything, compared to warriors that only has physical hits that has to be able to be blocked (they got barrier as well that is a great tool much much better than SS, altho it consts resources)
SS is about as usefull as dodge, its there every now and then, but you hardly change your gameplay around much if that shield is present or not.
Its an overall dmg reduce to use SS, not always very good at reducing dmg when you need it, that said its obviously a lot better than dodge since its reliable.

Nordix wrote:Realize,next tier has 90% of the boss abilities tagged with that string that makes you unable to immune
it with bubble or HoP.

This just isnt very interesting tho.
Cause the only real abilities we "break" encounters with bop/bubble are Horridon, Durumu and Iron Qon.
And for either of those fights, you dont need a paladin tank, you just need a paladin in the group for BoP, thats it.
But, on horridon and Qon, its SotR that breaks the fights more than any other tank, and Durumu's "hard hits" are really not that hard, but other classes relying on dodge/parry cant dodge/parry it, so they are at a disadvantage.
Same will be 100% true in next tier, sure we cant bubble/bop abilities, thats more to make 10mans not HAVE to carry a paladin in it, than to make protpallys not able to solotank shit.

Nordix wrote:Realize,they already nerfed vengeance with various caps and gains and now the SS 30% nerf is on top of those->I think it's more than 30% overall nerf.My rough prediction is we'll be reaching current values(5.2) in top gear again.

What caps? they are not in the game anymore and they seem to have been reverted.
There wont be any 30%/50% of your HP caps anymore, and even if they were other classes suffer more from it than our SS ticks, our SS ticks doesnt scale nearly as well with vengeance as Warr Shield barrier for example, or Monks Ox Shields (granted its on other players) or Guard for example. But ours doesnt cost resources, and is low upkeep on it.
BUT its main flaw is also that the other shields can be used as Oh Shit buttons or CDs, SS is not.

Nordix wrote:Realize that paladin dps isnt that great compared to monks and that other tanks got buffed too with a passive called Riposte among other things. The new GC proc is going to be broken on any fight where we can tank multiple adds and the boss or just adds (Monk winning crane kick still better by a mile for dpsing them down tho),yet it will be completely useless on a fight where the boss keeps casting stuff a lot instead of hitting you (like jikun f.ex) or doesn't even have meleeswings ,just spams your face with magic (lei shi).

Yes, we are outdpsed by one of the 4 other classes, you want us to be best at everything?
And even so, at high vengeance levels they play a lot riskier than we do to produce that kind of damage.
I dont disagree keg smash or Monk aoe capabilities are overpowered, but to be fair Druids have even greater dps capabilities than Paladins, they just suck and cant survive past 400k vengeance like we and Monks can.

Riposte, have you understood that mechanic yet?
A common misunderstanding is that it takes your dodge/parry and adds 75% of that into critt. Aka if you got 10% dodge and 25% parry (my own stats), you end up with 26% more crit, and that would be a lot.
That however is very wrong, and it works with rating. Taking my own stats as an example, having 5k dodge, and 4,5k parry, I would end up with about 7k critt, about 12% crit.
With buffs that means that you are going from 10% crit (5.3) to 22% crit(5.4), Sure thats quite noticable, but DKs/Warriors are very far behind in terms of damage in raiding situations atm, that this is a nice little boost for them, they will NOT be overtaking us in dps due to this change.

If you are relying on grand crusader strikes from your crusader strikes right now, you have the wrong mindset about how usefull grand crusader is atm. With high Haste you do about 20 CS per minute, that means you get a whole 2.4 GC per minute, so effectively GC (with CS) grants you almost one SotR extra per minute, thats nice and all but a single DivPurp procc is more potent.
Sure on single target the GC change will be a nerf, but if there are adds, and you can have one or two of them on you, you are almost spamming AVS, this nerf will really not have any kind of negative impact imo, but has the potential to be insanely overpowered with a few adds on you.

And our biggest problem with bosses not doing physical damage but rather Magic, is not that GC wont procc, its going to be that SotR does nothing, same for monks their shit does nothing, Druids armor does nothing, Dks Shields do nothing, Warriors can still Shieldbarrier. Saying Paladins are at a disadvantage cause GC cant procc means you are not even taking the other classes into account. And about bosses that spend a lot of time doing other shit like Jikun, how is that bad? it allows you to easily bank more Holypower to make sure all hits are covered with SotR, you wont need the extra HP for survivability, sure its a small dps decrease, but hardly a big one.

Nordix wrote:Damage smoothing is king,and I don't have any meters besides omen,nor do I care much for them,I want to kill the boss,not kill it while looking badass with explosions in the background while riding a dragon while winning on 5 different meters. There is a difference between smoothing from 500k to average 250,halving,or from 500k to 400k.

And this is exactly what Paladins are King at.
They are the best at reducing all those 500k hits to 250k hits, while Monks smooth them out to about 350k, altho they take a lot less of them due to high avoidance. Warriors are able to reduce to same strengths as paladins if not even better, but relies on dmg beeing blockable, and it does have a fixed ammount of uptime unlike us.

Nordix wrote:What I ultimately DON'T understand,is WHY all these nerfs instead of fixing our broken 4set so we can't keep up sotr 100%.

Haste is doing this, NOT the 4set, it simply helps a lot more than 2k haste would that you would otherwise get.
Someone took a log of mine on a fight like Ra-den and calculated that my 4set gave me the equivalent of HP as 7k haste or so would have given me, im not quite sure about the numbers there but it seems about accurate.
Its basically boosting our Haste WHEN there is shitloads of damage intake, so its dynamical rather than not using 4set gives you static ammount of haste.
What makes the 4set that great however is its ability to scale with dmg intake so that when you take a lot of damage you can almost with certainty reduce all that damage to about half, thus giving you insane smoothing.
And Like Worldie is saying not that many people use it, especially now during farm many people ignore it cause it doesnt make their character sheet look as good, and they cant tell others they got x ammount of haste.
And what I dont get is why dont you use the 4set (When its so overpowered breaking us reaching 100% uptime) and like it rather than asking for nerfs on it.
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