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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:57 am

Lately I've been running into 2 groups of people I just don't understand.

Certain people continually fail to comprehend how things are different outside of their own tiny little world. They cannot for the life of themselves get past the fact that people may no longer have the same issues as they do at different levels than they are. In the grand scheme, these people either cannot think outside the box or cannot see the big picture.


There are also a select few that continually derail threads by consistantly nitpicking a seemingly insignificant or minor details. There are a group of people who seem to argue for they sake of seeing themselves in pixels on a webpage.

/endrant
Last edited by Dragonzbane on Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:09 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Arcand wrote:I follow this tanking forum where it's currently in vogue to say "you missed the point" whenever someone disagrees with you.

It has this impossible-to-ignore whiff of "you must not have understood what I said, for none who grasped the import of my pronouncements could but be instantly converted".


qft


QFT

And on the opposite end I can't stand when you specifically put a point out there in bright glowing Neon lights that would put Vegas to shame and some people still don't get it.

It sometimes goes so far as to actually say "this is the point" and it still eludes those people.
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Postby jere » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:15 pm

One of the things that has bothered me recently is the seemingly incline of what could become elitism if we are not careful. In various forums and threads I have seen comments about "that's not end game" or "it's not T6" or even "you aren't at this level so you wouldn't understand" kind of things. It seems funny to watch as in most cases the topics discussed are a lot more global than people think, but for some reason, they try to use the 'endgame' card as the basis for their argument anyways, even though it either isn't really applicable or if it is, the point it supports doesn't even relate back to the topic at hand fully. Maybe they use the endgame card to make others look less credible, or perhaps they can't see past their own T6 world anymore, or perhaps there is some other reason. It just feels like we are not only starting to forget where we came from, but we are sometimes pushing back those trying to get where we are and making them "inferior". It is similar to what a lot of warriors did soon after TBC came out. The whole "you beat kara? kara is so last month" kind of mentality. Having gone through that period and having those type of things happen, it is frustrating to see some established tankadins doing that to others just to prove a point or for whatever reason.

This kinda mirrors what Dragonzbane was saying and it is frustrating as some people don't seem to look outside their own box anymore as they progress, though it approaches it from the otherside. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but it definitely seems to be more prevailant, whether it is truly intended or not.

And Arcand, you totally missed the point, gawd!! :lol: /joke
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Postby Arcand » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:55 pm

Dragonzbane wrote:It sometimes goes so far as to actually say "this is the point" and it still eludes those people.


Or does it? Just because one says A and people don't react like one's struck a mighty blow for truth and reason, doesn't mean it went over their heads.

It could mean they didn't understand it because they're dense,

or they didn't understand it because it was poorly explained,

or they don't embrace the idea because they disagree with its premises,

or the don't embrace the idea because the two of you haven't agreed on the context,

or the idea doesn't interest them and they start talking about something else.

This is precisely the thing that worries me, the assumption that there's something wrong with our audience (never our idea or our assumptions or the way we're expressing the idea) when they don't agree with us. It's all over the internet and it's an attitude unworthy of courteous, educated people.
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Postby Aalryn » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:58 pm

Arcand wrote:This is precisely the thing that worries me, the assumption that there's something wrong with our audience (never our idea or our assumptions or the way we're expressing the idea) when they don't agree with us. It's all over the internet and it's an attitude unworthy of courteous, educated people.


I know that you have your own opinion and you are entitled to them... but wouldn't you rather be right?
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Postby Garov » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:21 pm

Spending more time on this site and others than actual in-game time, researching everything I can and putting that knowledge into action, to be treated like the gimmick tank by my guild and friends of over a decade.

If there was a movie with actors the scene would go something like this:
The raid slowly approaches the hallway. Strange skittering Murlocs grbrawlrlrlrlrl as they run around in packs of half a dozen. The bear leading the raid turns to look over his shoulder," Hey Garov, we have half a dozen weird little runny things. Get up here and distract em for a minute." The crowd parts as Garov walks towards the hallway. His head hangs low in shame, yet a tiny smile can be seen peeking through. He gets to use his shield, finally.


That's what it feels like every single time. Despite overgearing one of the other warriors by hp and armor and despite being within 300 hp's of the other warrior I never tank a damn boss outside of a 10 man, ever. It's freaking annoying the hell out of me. I don't have a huge grudge that the druid in our guild tanks mostly everything because he has 3k more hp. That's fine and I can get that. But dammit throw me a bone! What makes it more frustrating is I took the newest warrior tank to join our guild under my wing, tanked heroics and Kara and basically watched the plate gear fall and go to him. Now he's the raid leader for 25 mans and totally forgets I can even tank.
The one warrior tank I have a damn good synergy with (we run 10 mans together exclusively) is thinking of speccing out of prot to give me a better shot at tanking more than just "zomg we have a million adds, get over here" encounters.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:33 pm

Arcand wrote:
Dragonzbane wrote:It sometimes goes so far as to actually say "this is the point" and it still eludes those people.


Or does it? Just because one says A and people don't react like one's struck a mighty blow for truth and reason, doesn't mean it went over their heads.

It could mean they didn't understand it because they're dense,

or they didn't understand it because it was poorly explained,

or they don't embrace the idea because they disagree with its premises,

or the don't embrace the idea because the two of you haven't agreed on the context,

or the idea doesn't interest them and they start talking about something else.

This is precisely the thing that worries me, the assumption that there's something wrong with our audience (never our idea or our assumptions or the way we're expressing the idea) when they don't agree with us. It's all over the internet and it's an attitude unworthy of courteous, educated people.


I would think that courteous, educated people would acknowledge the point and then go on to state one of the bullet points you laid out above.

Of course in the situations I'm talking about said people ignored or did not see the point and continued out of context.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:55 pm

jere wrote:One of the things that has bothered me recently is the seemingly incline of what could become elitism if we are not careful. In various forums and threads I have seen comments about "that's not end game" or "it's not T6" or even "you aren't at this level so you wouldn't understand" kind of things. It seems funny to watch as in most cases the topics discussed are a lot more global than people think, but for some reason, they try to use the 'endgame' card as the basis for their argument anyways, even though it either isn't really applicable or if it is, the point it supports doesn't even relate back to the topic at hand fully. Maybe they use the endgame card to make others look less credible, or perhaps they can't see past their own T6 world anymore, or perhaps there is some other reason. It just feels like we are not only starting to forget where we came from, but we are sometimes pushing back those trying to get where we are and making them "inferior". It is similar to what a lot of warriors did soon after TBC came out. The whole "you beat kara? kara is so last month" kind of mentality. Having gone through that period and having those type of things happen, it is frustrating to see some established tankadins doing that to others just to prove a point or for whatever reason.



I've seen some of this myself from some people who are "end game".
Some of it is a load of bull as you said. Those "well..you're healers suck" or "your DPS is trash" kinda posts should be left to the Blizzard forums.

Some of it is realistic concern, though.
We all have to recognize that at different levels of content there are different issues to overcome. It's like this "end game threat" issue that's cropped up. I see this as a major concern if it bears out.


Ex:
At the point where someone in full T6 comes out and says I'm in full threat gear and my TPS is low compare to equally geared warrior X on fight Z and someone replies "no way our threat is way better than warriors because I do 300 more TPS against Prince", well...

Sure it's that's an exaggeration but...
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:57 pm

Right now, we have to start looking to 2.4 and WotLK to see if the issues that we still have are being address by Blizzard. We've gone almost a whole expansion with similar issues since day 1. Sure somethings have gotten better, gear has been improving, mechanics have been adjusted and these are all good things.

But if all they do next Expansion is fix the problems we have in this expansion, without improving the class above and beyond that, then I think there's a major issue here.

Maybe this is too lofty a goal but I'm not really going to be happy until there's a Paladin out there somewhere competing for a world first as an MT.

Hopefully that will be because of improvement to the Paladin class not some gimmick encounter Blizz throws in to make us happy.
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Postby Melathys » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:02 am

guess I'll post in this one, lol.

Halazzi tonight. raid leader puts the warrior main tanking (he has 17k buffed) I have 20k buffed....okkaaayy, I play along. I play along for the next 4 wipes. Several raid members ask for the paladin to tank, as they see that I'm, well, better geared for it.

Here's the good part. The raid leader, a druid, puts on his tanking gear and says he's going to main tank. It gets even better, saying that he wants a cleave soak (or wtfever it is) with him..oh, lets put the warrior in there again with 3-4k less health. Leaving me to put on healing gear.

I guess it makes too much sense to put the best geared tank in a main tanking role.


I suppose I should be grateful that at least the leaders put some effort to learn paladin mechanics. They realize that we front load threat better than other tanks, so I got to be first rotation on Void Reaver.

By this point, I'm rather frustrated by this guild not letting me MT, so I decide I'm going to try to show them a thing or two. First couple of fights (this was a learning experience for most of the guild, myself included) I was in my standard boss tanking gear (high health, balanced avoidance). I last to about 50% before dropping threat lead, which is what's expected I suppose. 2nd try, same thing.

3rd try. I decide to make a new gear set on the fly. Maximum threat from gear I had on me. I bumped spell dmg from 300 to 500. Third try, I tanked void reaver start to finish.

But that wasn't impressive enough, I'm still not main tanking anything, lol.
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Postby thegreatheed » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:08 am

Kivas wrote:running shattered halls 2-3 times a day 4 days a week. Running w/ pugs, alts of alts of guildies, pretty much anyone i can find. ( 3 hunters and 68 resto shaman last night) and i have yet to see the trinket i need drop. THis is getting beyond annoying now, i think after looting kargath last night for the 3rd time after our Tk raid i almost started to cry :cry:


i feel your pain, 6-8 runs after i was max exalted rep w/ thrallmar before i got my fotc.
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Postby Triglav » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:04 am

normal mech run:

holy pala: who's tanking ?
friend mage: Tintalle is.
holy pala: lawl pala tank ?

once we enter the instance:

holy pala: [Gladiator's Gavel] ??
me: ?
holy pala: you're gonna tank with that ??
me: yeep

after the instance:

holy pala: Tintalle wanna come tank arca ? :)
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Postby Swagger » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:42 am

Dragonzbane wrote:Lately I've been running into 2 groups of people I just don't understand.

Certain people continually fail to comprehend how things are different outside of their own tiny little world. They cannot for the life of themselves get past the fact that people may no longer have the same issues as they do at different levels than they are. In the grand scheme, these people either cannot think outside the box or cannot see the big picture.


There are also a select few that continually derail threads by consistantly nitpicking a seemingly insignificant or minor details. There are a group of people who seem to argue for they sake of seeing themselves in pixals on a webpage.

/endrant


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Postby Mortehl » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:30 am

Lalecize wrote:Well...

I had a dream the othernight that I got asked to do a SH run to prove that pallys could tank to the world.

Everyone was watching, and as I joined the party I realised it was me and 4 DPS warriors.

I woke up in a cold sweat.


So, they aoe whirlwind/flurried the shit out of the place and you discovered that 1900 DPS fury warriors rock?
Arthas, we're coming for you. (Eventually)
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:34 am

Mortehl wrote:
Lalecize wrote:Well...

I had a dream the othernight that I got asked to do a SH run to prove that pallys could tank to the world.

Everyone was watching, and as I joined the party I realised it was me and 4 DPS warriors.

I woke up in a cold sweat.


So, they aoe whirlwind/flurried the shit out of the place and you discovered that 1900 DPS fury warriors rock?

Affliction warlocks do that too.
A couple weeks ago I did a heroic SLab tankage. Me. Shaman healer. 3 shaman dpsers(1 enh, 2 ele)
Best run ever. Made the inciter feel easy(gg 4 fire elementals)
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Postby Amirya » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:34 am

I shouldn't even be here, I should be online with my guildmaster (holyadin) so we can get me to 70 finally...

Worst Sethekk Halls run ever, on any of my toons, including my 70's.
I'm tanking. Holyadin is healing. Rogue (not sure of his spec), shadow priest, boomkin.

Now I'll grant, this was only my second time tanking this place - first run, made it through with no wipes, and only the holy priest died on the last boss (but the shadow priest then picked up heals).

This time? Just shoot me. I can't generate near enough threat because they're CCing out their asses, and I'm already being treated like a noob retard because...well, I dunno why. Rogue and priest and I were all 69, drood was 67 (holyadin is 70).
Rogue: Wow, this is so easy!
Me: I'm glad someone thinks so.
Rogue: Lawl
Me: Because I can't generate enough threat with you guys doing so much CC, and as a result you guys are getting attacked.
Rogue: True. *shuffles in, saps* Priest, shackle this. Drood, hibernate that.


Kill me now.

Rogue: Tank him on this side of the pillar, when he AEs, we run to the other side.
Me: *Seal of Light, run into AS range*
Shadow Priest: *SW:PainMindBlastSW:Death* *dies*


Drood: Okay, Tank, you pull him here and tank. When he teleports, he'll go here, so you have to tank him there and we'll run over here. When he teleports again, you tank him right here, and we'll run over there around the corner and behind the lamp.
Holyadin: (via whisper) I'm so confused. What did she say?
Me: (via whispered reply) I die, you run around this corner than that one and hide behind some lamp. I think.


I'm going to make myself a macro:

/p Do not Power Word: Shield me unless I am flashing red-dying. Do not tell me how to tank unless I ask; if I ask, it's because I know I can learn from you. Especially do not tell me how to tank if you immediately preface that with, "I don't have a paladin and so don't know the mechanics of pala-tanking."
/p Do not CC unless I ask for it; I'd rather be generating more threat than you can piss. In fact, give me leader, let me mark, kill in the order that I specify, and keep me alive. You'll be golden.
/p If this is a problem for you, please let me know now, I'm happy to explain my reasons. If you are just a complete retard, please leave the party immediately. Thank you, and enjoy the run.
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Postby Lalecize » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:55 am

Mortehl wrote:
Lalecize wrote:Well...

I had a dream the othernight that I got asked to do a SH run to prove that pallys could tank to the world.

Everyone was watching, and as I joined the party I realised it was me and 4 DPS warriors.

I woke up in a cold sweat.


So, they aoe whirlwind/flurried the shit out of the place and you discovered that 1900 DPS fury warriors rock?



Sadly no... :(

methinks you guys might be used to a bit better dps warriors... All the DPS warriors ive met have been pugged for 70 normals (or pre 70) and not one of them so far has shown any signs of decent dps.

Worst I had was a 70 fury warrior doing barely 300dps.
Give me a rogue any day of the week.

note: I am aware that there are some very good ones out there
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Postby Queycar » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:12 am

First night tanking in The eye...first time my guilds even been in there. And all night long i'm getting non stop tells from random DPS trying to negotiate about what pali buffs they are getting. :x Cause tanking a new 25 man raid for the first time isn't something I want to concentrate on or anything.
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Postby Nemuria » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:35 am

Frustration of being a Draenei paladin tank:
Me:"Tank looking for Botanica"
Joining a mage
Gnome Mage: can we go to Arcatraz just for the KZ frag? Are you healer?
*cough* "protect I can't heal long enough, It's just I don't have the key, need to run botanica"
Gnome Warlock joining: Hello... the Shaman heals? We need a tank also.
Gnome Mage: you have found a shaman?
Gnome Warlock: no I am just asking Nemu if she can.

rolf
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Postby Klepsacovic » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:37 am

My latest frustration is just the cycle that kills guilds. Holidays make us slow down. The people that came just for epics leave. More reasonable people stay, but we can tell they are frustrated at the slowing down and that people are leaving. More leave and suddenly I'm not sure if we can even get numbers for Gruul. So now we aren't just slow, we're regressing. So more people leave because attendance is bad. Well no shit attendance is bad, you keep leaving!

My secondary frustration is the inability to remove gear in combat. If I want to take off my pants to get more mana, that is my right as an American. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say I have to wear pants nor does it say when I can and cannot remove my pants. This will be my top issue in the coming election.
Rehlachs- wrote:at least I get blamed for this rogue-dps thing.. "there is no sunder armor on the mobs tanked by the paladin! we can't dps there". yeah, that would explain your 700 dps, being fully buffed sitting in a group with all possible supportthingies (wf, drums, shout, feralcritstuff, and so on).

sometimes I get a slight feeling that our raid lead has to open recruitment for rogues again.

It's their big day, they get to use expose armor for the first time ever.

Dragonzbane wrote:Ex:
At the point where someone in full T6 comes out and says I'm in full threat gear and my TPS is low compare to equally geared warrior X on fight Z and someone replies "no way our threat is way better than warriors because I do 300 more TPS against Prince", well...

Sure it's that's an exaggeration but...

This isn't an end-game thing. This is a set of situations where the person tanking Prince can't see that he's in different gear with a different boss than the guy in T6. It could just as easily be reversed.
I don't have a DPS meter so I use an aggro meter. I always win.
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:49 am

wtf is Kelpsacovic doing here?!?!?!
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Postby Aerron » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:13 am

Klepsacovic wrote:
My secondary frustration is the inability to remove gear in combat. If I want to take off my pants to get more mana, that is my right as an American. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say I have to wear pants nor does it say when I can and cannot remove my pants. This will be my top issue in the coming election.


For Kleps:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/01 ... ml?ref=rss
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Postby Tonirae » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:48 am

Amirya wrote:I'm going to make myself a macro:

/p Do not Power Word: Shield me unless I am flashing red-dying. Do not tell me how to tank unless I ask; if I ask, it's because I know I can learn from you. Especially do not tell me how to tank if you immediately preface that with, "I don't have a paladin and so don't know the mechanics of pala-tanking."
/p Do not CC unless I ask for it; I'd rather be generating more threat than you can piss. In fact, give me leader, let me mark, kill in the order that I specify, and keep me alive. You'll be golden.
/p If this is a problem for you, please let me know now, I'm happy to explain my reasons. If you are just a complete retard, please leave the party immediately. Thank you, and enjoy the run.


I'm not sure if you were joking about making this macro..
But I highly recommend you do it, seriously... DO IT!
Do it, follow through with what you've said and people will be whispering you for months to come, asking you to tank for them.
Believe me, I know..
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Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:43 am

Heh, I was only half-serious. I have a group of people I usually run instances with, and they all know how I tank. That macro would be more for PUGs where there is no one I know in it.

Of course, the only other problem I see is that I'm already getting asked to tank things like mad. 4 hours in UB the other night for a guild run, with no one listening and the dps make up being alllllll wrong.

Then getting asked to tank it again the next morning. /cry

But - you are absolutely right. I should make that a macro. In fact...I think I shall.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:34 pm

Having to run again through SSC and TK because 15 people decided to quit the game during xmas holiday, and losing time on Vashj while we could be attempting Illidan.
That is frustrating.
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