Post your Frustrations.

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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:15 pm

I can't believe people still think bloated talent trees were better than what we have now. I don't buy that "bbbut it's cookie cutter" bullshit either because even in vanilla you were copying off some random site.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:17 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I love the pandaren models. I hate the female voices tho... They sound like margaret cho.

I hate the art in mop though... Although this is only for weapons armors. I feel like something out of gaogaigar with the tier gear on...

I dont like the raids... Complexity for the sake of it. I feel they're reaching a point where its impossible for everyone to retain everything about the fight on short term memory... I could say they have passed it already on some instances, with the game approaching twitch-gameplay levels.

Also, i might be horde, but i feel bad for alliance players. Their story sucks. No wonder ally players are pissed.


I think on the complexity level, this was inevitable. Blizzard has come to accept the resources at the disposal of the playerbase. They've also had to deal with developing challenging content for players that have been raiding for 8 years and simultaneously for those who just started. Not an enviable task. I also think the slow progression of graphic effects is an attempt to catch up to 'modern' games.

On the alliance lore side, I think that we have kind of a meh story since it's basically 'oh, I know you have all kinds of reasons to wage an all-out war, but Pandas and bug-people!'. Bear in mind that it's always easy to find fault in the storytelling, but I was just thinking about how our 'active' story has been playing out, which is basically to become passive. As I said in another thread, I think there were a lot of opportunities that were ignored (at least in-game) because of the focus on things happening on Pandaria. The cynic in me expects those to eventually be told in books, with no reference in-game.

That all said, I have no idea if the horde story comes off any different.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:10 pm

econ21 wrote:
Shoju wrote:4.) The new Talent "Trees"


If you had stayed, you probably would have grown to like these. I hated getting rid of the old trees too - I mean going from 41 or however many talents to 6 was rather a drastic loss of "stuff". But recently, I've warmed to them once you stop thinking them as defining your character and more as situational skills you'll make available for certain fights (rather like in guild wars, you select certain talents). In that respect, they are just like glyphs but more powerful. For example, you might want two bubbles, so pick clemency or maybe you need a speed boost button or a raid heal or protection vs dots. It becomes part of smart gameplay, bringing the right talents to the fight, as well as the right gear or using your abilities appropriately.

I did not notice this much in T14, but am appreciating it a lot more in T15.

The old trees may be better if leveling actually mattered in the game (a new skill point every level or two is a far better carrot than one every 15). But at end level, we pretty much all did pick the cookie cutter build, so they added little to the game.




Teranoid wrote:I can't believe people still think bloated talent trees were better than what we have now. I don't buy that "bbbut it's cookie cutter" bullshit either because even in vanilla you were copying off some random site.


I doubt I would like them honestly. I liked when there were options. The big failing was that they had the big trees, and there was absolutely a best version. The current 6 lines of 3 choices is not a talent tree. The overwhelming majority of them are spells / abilities.

One of the things that I absolutely love about Path of Exile (ARPG I've talked about) is THIS

1350 skills. These are the talents. Each Class has a starting point, and you get a point per level, and you get points from doing certain quests. If you hit level cap (100, and no one is there yet), and took every single option that gave you passive skill points instead of an alternative option, you would end up with 121 points to spend. There are no restrictions. If you can get to the point, you can spend the point. I LOVE IT

The Skill tree augments my abilities, and a lot of the choices are rather mundane when looked at individually, and some of them are just flat out better. It happens. There are some... "Cookie Cutter" type trees that are mapped out, but even those leave a lot of room for what you are going to do, and how you want to flavor it.

While there are some hangups in the system right now, It makes me feel like it really is my choice. I have a witch / summoner that I'm playing right now, and the "cookie cutter" path for it was pretty simple to follow. You go and get most of the nodes and keystones that relate to being a summoner. but then, do you want life? Do you want to go CI? Do you want to have exploding minions? Do you want your shield stats to apply to you or your minions?

The options are endless, and really, there are so many viable builds it's staggering. I looked at the skill tree of one of the highest ladder players in Hardcore, and I for the life of me, couldn't make sense out of it, until I saw his gear, and his spell choice.

Then it made sense.

If WoW could have pulled off the large trees, and kept it so that it wasn't such a cookie cutter thing, then I feel the game would have been better for it. In the current iteration, uit feels more like I'm picking new spells every 15 levels, and not actually picking talents.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:22 pm

Would that system work in WoW, where the players all expect the specs to be within a few % of each other in capability?
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:29 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Would that system work in WoW, where the players all expect the specs to be within a few % of each other in capability?


No, they wouldn't. WoW has far too much player history and theorycrafting for that to work. And what happens in 5 years when the level cap is 150?

But, it would lead to lots of new options, that people would cry about till they were nerfed.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:38 pm

halabar wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Would that system work in WoW, where the players all expect the specs to be within a few % of each other in capability?


No, they wouldn't. WoW has far too much player history and theorycrafting for that to work. And what happens in 5 years when the level cap is 150?

But, it would lead to lots of new options, that people would cry about till they were nerfed.


Yep. I think the big customization can only really work well in games where either there isn't a PVP system, or where you actually have freedom in how you go about encounters. P&P RPGs, for example, where you can have a tree that 'makes sense' and may make things harder in some ways but can open up other avenues in others.

When your metric is 'produce/take X DPS/HPS for X amount of time while obeying fixed mechanics' (i.e. kill a boss), it's not hard to believe why things are the way they are.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:43 pm

The biggest suck of Mists is the removal of that "terrible" LFR loot system from DS, and it's replacement with that spawn-of-hell RNG system that we are stuck with now. With all the claims by Blizz that they were making things "fair" it's real purpose was to slow down gearing and make valor farming more critical.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:54 pm

They are adding unlucky streak protection to both LFR and coin rolls in 5.3, so all is fine.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Jabari » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:57 pm

Worldie wrote:They are adding unlucky streak protection to both LFR and coin rolls in 5.3, so all is fine.


Yay! Now I can get 6 extraneous cloaks and necklaces FASTER than before!
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:06 pm

It's very nice to get extra loots when you are enchanter :mrgreen:
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:05 pm

halabar wrote:The biggest suck of Mists is the removal of that "terrible" LFR loot system from DS, and it's replacement with that spawn-of-hell RNG system that we are stuck with now. With all the claims by Blizz that they were making things "fair" it's real purpose was to slow down gearing and make valor farming more critical.


Sorry got nothing out of this post but "The new system sucks because back in DS I could have everyone roll need on everything for me, be geared in 2 weeks and sit on the forums and complain about how I have nothing to do. Now I'm left at the mercy of the same RNG that has been in raids since 2005 and it's not fair"

Worldie wrote:They are adding unlucky streak protection to both LFR and coin rolls in 5.3, so all is fine.

Which will inevitably lead to "This system sucks I got the same piece of gear X times" Same old shit. Argument shifts from "Well my raid can't kill X because we can't get loot" to "Well we would have killed X if we wouldn't have gotten nothing but the same crap every time"
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby bldavis » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:52 pm

honestly, i doubt the PoE system would work for ANY MMO, but works great for a game that you are mostly solo or in small groups and can tailor your class to be specific to how you want to play
in PoE, each class has a set starting point, but there are a ton of ways to play each class. in wow there are only a few ways to play without being severly gimped for each spec, and each class has a set role, or 4.

the new talents may suck while leveling, but i love them for end game content, which lets be honest, wow is all about
the ability to take extra self heals, or raid wide damage reduction as a choice is one i swap a few times a raid night.
depending on what talent you pick, you can have COMPLETELY different playstyles - for example a kitty druid taking dream of cenarius or heart of the wild over nature's vigil - one you can pop out of kitty form and heal halfway decently(or bear form and OT an add), one you weave heals into your rotation for damage boost, and the last one you hit a button, get a damage boost and help heal those around you

i personally hated the new talents when they first came out, but now i have grown to love them, and i think you would too Shoju, given your playstyle of being more solo-ing based

try to solo a boss, something doesnt quite work, hmm lets see what happens if i take this talent instead of this one
instead of reading a website and going ok, this is my talent build, this is where i put all 41 or so points, now you can say ok for this fight this talent is nice, but this one give me something else that will help more - switch!

as for the new LFR loot..i personally dont mind...esp now that they are putting in bad RNG protection
personally i didnt like the old one, esp when i got screwed out of my Tmog set (and 4pc for my priest) when he lost the shoulder token the last week of DS LFR, to someone who was afk the entire fight...
now, if i get gear or not is NOT dependent on other people being asses and needing stuff they have 4 of, or needing when they woke up hearing the loot sounds

now it is just down to you and the dice of RNG, which was always there in the form of you getting the gear to drop in the first place, and then needing to win the roll. 6 healers, 1 healing mace from the boss...you have a 1 in 6 chance of winning IF it drops
you have a 20% chance of getting it? plus your bonus roll so 40%, plus the RNG protection they are putting in, so while yes you MIGHT get additional items (anyone want my 3rd sword from Sha in terrace?) you also have removed a lot of the RNG of gear having to drop, and you having to win the roll...now its just did something drop FOR ME!
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:46 pm

yeah, I think the current loot system, while frustrating at times, is vastly superior to what we had in LFR DS.

If anything, the LFRs now are perhaps evidence that they should have not bothered with the LFR DS, though I'm glad they did because of things like loot abuse and gauging reception.

edited to add: I think probably the biggest downfall of the current LFRs is as simple as player attitude with respect to facerollability and what that means and what it 'should' be.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:45 am

bldavis wrote:honestly, i doubt the PoE system would work for ANY MMO, but works great for a game that you are mostly solo or in small groups and can tailor your class to be specific to how you want to play
in PoE, each class has a set starting point, but there are a ton of ways to play each class. in wow there are only a few ways to play without being severly gimped for each spec, and each class has a set role, or 4.


I argee, it probably wouldn't work, but I would love to see one try something that vast. Something where any class can tank / heal / dps, based on what they do. Really though, WoW has removed a lot of the ways you had to gimp yourself. You pick a spec, and you are suddenly blessed with the abilities you need, and you just "gain" them as you level. There is no choice involved in it anymore. There is no "well my group already has X buff, So I'll talent out of it to do this instead". No. You now have it, and you bring it, whether you need it or not. You get the toolbox, that has all the mundane / mandatory tools in it, even if you overlap with someone else, and you get to pick what shiny tools you want, that aren't "mandatory".

the new talents may suck while leveling, but i love them for end game content, which lets be honest, wow is all about
the ability to take extra self heals, or raid wide damage reduction as a choice is one i swap a few times a raid night.
depending on what talent you pick, you can have COMPLETELY different playstyles - for example a kitty druid taking dream of cenarius or heart of the wild over nature's vigil - one you can pop out of kitty form and heal halfway decently(or bear form and OT an add), one you weave heals into your rotation for damage boost, and the last one you hit a button, get a damage boost and help heal those around you


And this is the thing, It's Utility. To me, the new trees, and the hand holding "HEY! YOU NOW HAVE THIS THING HERE TO HELP YOU WITH YOUR SPEC" just doesn't interest me.

i personally hated the new talents when they first came out, but now i have grown to love them, and i think you would too Shoju, given your playstyle of being more solo-ing based

try to solo a boss, something doesnt quite work, hmm lets see what happens if i take this talent instead of this one
instead of reading a website and going ok, this is my talent build, this is where i put all 41 or so points, now you can say ok for this fight this talent is nice, but this one give me something else that will help more - switch!


I can do that in POE. I got to the Fetid Pool in Cruel Difficulty, on a character, and the boss was destroying me with his raise dead. AWESOME! Swap main nuke from Heavy Strike to Infernal Blow, and swap my AoE from Cyclone to Detonate Dead (and just a level 1 DD gem to boot) Boss died. For me, the analogy would be that the WoW talents became the Skill Gem system, but you only get to choose a few of the skill gems that you use.

And I know that a lot of people looked at sites to get their talent builds. I wont lie, When I played my paladin, I did as well. But when I got to my Death Knight, I decided that I wasn't going to do that anymore. I made a lot of choices in my tanking tree that were predicated on Logs, and data, and soloing. Part of the reason for that, is because if you can solo well on a DK, you are tanking well (in most cases).

I think the thing that I don't like is really that they caved to the majority, and gave them something that doesn't feel like they have to do the research themselves, or at least as much research. That's part of what I like about PoE. I have to do the research. I have to decide what it is that I'm going to do. I have to decide how I'm going to build. Sure, I solicit other Lurkers, or the Witch forums for advice, but I'm not asking for what I should do, I'm asking for what other people are doing. I like looking at how other people are moving through the passive tree, to see if maybe I didn't think of something, or didn't value something as much. Then I can assess it. The only fault I find in the passive system, is that if I want to take a look at the culmination of my tree, I have to either run a tampermonkey script, or use a third party site.

But, I realize, it's my tastes that have changed, just as much as it is WoW changed, and I'm ok with that. they decided to make the talent / skills portion of the game less research intensive, and that's a valid way to make the game more marketable. It's just not what I was looking for.



I guess I forgot another reason that I quit, and I don't know if they continued this trend in MoP or not, but the shared loot tables of Firelands and Dragon Soul, and their interaction with 10m raiding. 200+ qualifying kills of bosses that drop something, and I never saw it in DS. There were 2-3 items from the shared loot table in Firelands that I don't think we saw as a guild. That was frustrating. I don't mind Loot RNG. It's part of what made gearing in WoW work. But It's also what made Dragon Soul a drain. It seriously affected my desire to want to raid. It made loot feel unobtainable, because as a 10m Raider, I'm only seeing 2 pieces a week from a loot table on a boss that contains 20+ pieces of gear.

Sure, You can run the numbers, and realize that I was in a very small statistical minority, but there were other people in my raiding group that ended up in that a same statistical minority for the piece of shared loot table that they were after as well. Our Shadow Priest ended up over 180 kills without seeing his piece before he quit.

That just wasn't fun.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby culhag » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:38 am

But, I realize, it's my tastes that have changed, just as much as it is WoW changed, and I'm ok with that. they decided to make the talent / skills portion of the game less research intensive, and that's a valid way to make the game more marketable. It's just not what I was looking for.

Honestly it seems to me that you just got burnt out of WoW and you're rationalizing by saying "they changed the game to appeal to the kiddies". But most of the reasons you gave just don't make any sense to me. The game hasn't changed.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:44 am

The game hasn't changed? What? Seriously?

From the time I started playing to the time I stopped playing it had been changed quite a bit. And then MoP was another round of large changes to the way things work, the "things" that you do in the game to "do" other things have changed.

Pet Battles alone is evidence that the game has changed. They are staying with the same age demographic, which means that they changed what they had in the game. I'm no longer a part of that age demographic. I even said that my tastes changed as much as they changed the game.

The only thing that would point to burnout, is my citing of Firelands and DS loot tables, and it's effect on my desire to raid.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:48 am

I don't really feel like pet battles have changed the game. They're like a sidegame in a much larger game (like Blitzball in FFX). And it's not like it's required to participate since it doesn't net you any gear or anything specifically helpful for raids that you can only get from pet battles. If you never even knew pet battles were introduced in this expansion, you'd never even notice it in game.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:48 am

I don't think the talent changes made things less research intensive. I don't think there were even as many "do I take this ability, or that ability" in the old trees as there are now - in fact, most talent trees took every major spell and had their options in minor utility and passives ("hmm, do I take shorter interrupt cooldown or a 2% spell damage increase?" - the only actual talent decision I had to make in Cata).

I'll admit the tuning on the new talents isn't always quite there, though. I almost never change my talents at the minute - Shaman talents aren't the best, and the two tiers with meaningful choice for dps have definite winners.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:50 am

Nikachelle wrote:I don't really feel like pet battles have changed the game. They're like a sidegame in a much larger game (like Blitzball in FFX). And it's not like it's required to participate since it doesn't net you any gear or anything specifically helpful for raids that you can only get from pet battles. If you never even knew pet battles were introduced in this expansion, you'd never even notice it in game.


until I learned of the ease of getting lesser charms through them, I'd placed them on the same level as the fun, but quickly forgotten, minigames like the flying joust (or the A.T. Joust, for that matter - except that wasn't really fun) and plants v. zombie minigames.

I actually think the farm is a bigger game changer than pet battles.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:52 am

That bird jousting can go diaf.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby bldavis » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:02 am

i gotta second Nika and Bene, the pet battles was a fun, but forgettable part of the game as a side thing to do when you are tired of farming, doing dungeons, or pvping...until i found out how easy it is to get lesser charms from it

hell the legendary chain is a much bigger change to the game than pet battles...it is for everyone, spans the entire expansion, and gives you a lot of lore and possible foreshadowing of the next expansion(s)
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:15 am

I'm not saying that somehow Pet Battles fundamentally changed the game. I listed it as one of the things I was unhappy about, that they invested resources in. I would have rather them invested that time into the ill fated dance studio instead of pet battles. (Not that I care about either). But the fact is, Pet Battles are a sign that they are trying to keep the game marketable to the same age demographic. My age of people aren't in that demographic anymore. It's fine. They wanted to put that system in, and as I've seen a lot of places, there are people that love it. And a lot of those people (I'm not saying all) are the same people that enjoyed, and in a lot of cases grew up, with Pokemon. I was an adult when Pokemon came out. I don't begrudge people that like pokemon, it was just not something that ever interested me.

It's fine. I don't care. They did it, I didn't like it.

I don't see how the new talent system can even remotely offer the same level of research as the previous talent trees at a theorycrafting level. There are 18 total spells and abilities to look at, and you only have to compare them in groups of three. There is no more debating on what talent point in what spot is going to be the best. use of that point against a large pool of where you could put that point. The choices are fairly simple.

For Example. I'm looking at the Blood DK Talent Tree right now.

Row 1. How do you want to deal with diseases.
Unholy Blight is probably the better of the AoE Disease tools if you are dealing with a large group of adds coming in at the same time on a fight, or AoE tanking.
Roiling Blood would be better than that if you are dealing with a fight where you could get adds while you are currently tanking soemthing.
Plague Leech would be the best for Single Target Tanking, as long as you had some sort of disease tracking addon, so that you could make the most of it.

Row 2. Cooldowns.
Lichborne - If I'm able to pool my RP on a fight and have a large predictable amount of healing that will need done to myself. This is my choice.
AMZ - IF the thing works better than it did in previous expacs, I would take this on a fight where I need to mitigate damage over a group of people at a predictable time.
Purgatory - Would probably be my progression choice, and choice against hard hitting bosses, or large packs of adds that could kill me.

Row 3. Utility
Death's Advance Would probably me my go to ability 90% of the time.
Chillblains If I'm kiting something
Asphyxiate isn't much of a tank spell, but I'm sure there could be a fight where it might come in handy, but definitely not too often for a tank. Seems more PvP

Row 4. Self Healing
Death Pact - Probably my Go to. 50% of my health, and doesn't kill the ghoul.
Death Siphon - Would be pretty nice on a range fight. I'm assuming there is a rune cost, since one isn't listed.
Conversion - Would be an interesting choice when compared to Lichborne. I would probably run Conversion as a CD to help healing, while I would use Lichborne when I need to hit myself with larger heals.

Row 5. How do I get more runes.
This should really be a playstyle choice. I'm unsure how they work in game, but if balanced right, it comes down to what you like. With all things being equal, I'd probably go with Blood Tap, since It's consistent, and no RNG.

Row 6. AoE Effects with no Damage.
Gorefiends Grasp would be for those times when I need to taunt a large amount of adds coming in at one time.
Remorseless Winter. Looks like it would be a lot of fun in a kite / Add tanking when I don't need Grasp to round them up sort of thing.
Desecrated Ground Uh... times when you could be feared, slept, charmed.

There isn't much research into what is better or worse, unless in theory, some of these abilities just aren't balanced well in game. And then it's really just an elimination of choices.

To me, they are all if/else statements. To me, that's not as intriguing as what the talent trees could have been. They never got to where they could have been, and there were talents that aren't as good. This is a viable solution to the problem that talent trees faced. But for me, it just isn't something that interested me.

I don't begrudge them changing things. I was a little irritable at first, but I got over that, before I even quit the game.

I also didn't like the inclusion of farms. That's just not compelling gameplay for me anymore. Maybe it is for some. And I don't mind that. But it wasn't a feature that I was like "WOOHOO! I GET TO HAVE A FARM!"

The things to do in the game outside of raiding and dungeons changed. They made dailies near mandatory. They made this bizarre tie in between solo content, and PVE/Dungeon/Raiding Content that I didn't like. It happens. I'm ok with it. I moved on. They changed, I changed.

I can't believe I'm still feeding into this over a simple "I wonder why people left the game". And with that, I'm done.
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Shoju
 
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby poptart » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:28 am

Imagine that. I go away for 4 1/2 months after I quit the game, pop back on for the first time since and see Shoju with a 15 page post! :)

It appears that things do not change on MTadin! :)

Cheers,

Bloodlights
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby bldavis » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:54 pm

poptart wrote:Imagine that. I go away for 4 1/2 months after I quit the game, pop back on for the first time since and see Shoju with a 15 page post! :)

It appears that things do not change on MTadin! :)

Cheers,

Bloodlights

holy crap, you are alive!
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:07 pm

No helm I can use my legendary gem in. I did not realise it had an ilevel requirement until just now. Raid tomorrow, so might get lucky then, but wanted to go in fully upgraded. :(

Staying up late to do yet another LFR run for Twins, hoping for a token.

Edit: Welp, no helm, but I got a weapon and tier shoulders. Now I either don't have any upgrades there, or I have the annoying prospect of replacing two thunderforged items with lower ilevel tier to get a set bonus.

Edit2: Weapon isn't an upgrade over 491 sha-touched. :(

Edit3: And ayup, downgrading 528+528 to 502+522 tier is an upgrade. :/ Losing most of my Thunderforged items!
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