Post your Frustrations.

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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby bldavis » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:54 am

Shoju wrote:I was just reading the <Lurkers> forums, and they are having trouble getting 10 to field raids :( Wish that I had the time or desire to play again.

it would help if members of the raid team werent having to skip weeks due to work and trips
though even when we have everyone, we sometimes only get 8 or 9
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby econ21 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:07 pm

Shoju wrote:4.) The new Talent "Trees"


If you had stayed, you probably would have grown to like these. I hated getting rid of the old trees too - I mean going from 41 or however many talents to 6 was rather a drastic loss of "stuff". But recently, I've warmed to them once you stop thinking them as defining your character and more as situational skills you'll make available for certain fights (rather like in guild wars, you select certain talents). In that respect, they are just like glyphs but more powerful. For example, you might want two bubbles, so pick clemency or maybe you need a speed boost button or a raid heal or protection vs dots. It becomes part of smart gameplay, bringing the right talents to the fight, as well as the right gear or using your abilities appropriately.

I did not notice this much in T14, but am appreciating it a lot more in T15.

The old trees may be better if leveling actually mattered in the game (a new skill point every level or two is a far better carrot than one every 15). But at end level, we pretty much all did pick the cookie cutter build, so they added little to the game.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:15 pm

I can't believe people still think bloated talent trees were better than what we have now. I don't buy that "bbbut it's cookie cutter" bullshit either because even in vanilla you were copying off some random site.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:17 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I love the pandaren models. I hate the female voices tho... They sound like margaret cho.

I hate the art in mop though... Although this is only for weapons armors. I feel like something out of gaogaigar with the tier gear on...

I dont like the raids... Complexity for the sake of it. I feel they're reaching a point where its impossible for everyone to retain everything about the fight on short term memory... I could say they have passed it already on some instances, with the game approaching twitch-gameplay levels.

Also, i might be horde, but i feel bad for alliance players. Their story sucks. No wonder ally players are pissed.


I think on the complexity level, this was inevitable. Blizzard has come to accept the resources at the disposal of the playerbase. They've also had to deal with developing challenging content for players that have been raiding for 8 years and simultaneously for those who just started. Not an enviable task. I also think the slow progression of graphic effects is an attempt to catch up to 'modern' games.

On the alliance lore side, I think that we have kind of a meh story since it's basically 'oh, I know you have all kinds of reasons to wage an all-out war, but Pandas and bug-people!'. Bear in mind that it's always easy to find fault in the storytelling, but I was just thinking about how our 'active' story has been playing out, which is basically to become passive. As I said in another thread, I think there were a lot of opportunities that were ignored (at least in-game) because of the focus on things happening on Pandaria. The cynic in me expects those to eventually be told in books, with no reference in-game.

That all said, I have no idea if the horde story comes off any different.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:10 pm

econ21 wrote:
Shoju wrote:4.) The new Talent "Trees"


If you had stayed, you probably would have grown to like these. I hated getting rid of the old trees too - I mean going from 41 or however many talents to 6 was rather a drastic loss of "stuff". But recently, I've warmed to them once you stop thinking them as defining your character and more as situational skills you'll make available for certain fights (rather like in guild wars, you select certain talents). In that respect, they are just like glyphs but more powerful. For example, you might want two bubbles, so pick clemency or maybe you need a speed boost button or a raid heal or protection vs dots. It becomes part of smart gameplay, bringing the right talents to the fight, as well as the right gear or using your abilities appropriately.

I did not notice this much in T14, but am appreciating it a lot more in T15.

The old trees may be better if leveling actually mattered in the game (a new skill point every level or two is a far better carrot than one every 15). But at end level, we pretty much all did pick the cookie cutter build, so they added little to the game.




Teranoid wrote:I can't believe people still think bloated talent trees were better than what we have now. I don't buy that "bbbut it's cookie cutter" bullshit either because even in vanilla you were copying off some random site.


I doubt I would like them honestly. I liked when there were options. The big failing was that they had the big trees, and there was absolutely a best version. The current 6 lines of 3 choices is not a talent tree. The overwhelming majority of them are spells / abilities.

One of the things that I absolutely love about Path of Exile (ARPG I've talked about) is THIS

1350 skills. These are the talents. Each Class has a starting point, and you get a point per level, and you get points from doing certain quests. If you hit level cap (100, and no one is there yet), and took every single option that gave you passive skill points instead of an alternative option, you would end up with 121 points to spend. There are no restrictions. If you can get to the point, you can spend the point. I LOVE IT

The Skill tree augments my abilities, and a lot of the choices are rather mundane when looked at individually, and some of them are just flat out better. It happens. There are some... "Cookie Cutter" type trees that are mapped out, but even those leave a lot of room for what you are going to do, and how you want to flavor it.

While there are some hangups in the system right now, It makes me feel like it really is my choice. I have a witch / summoner that I'm playing right now, and the "cookie cutter" path for it was pretty simple to follow. You go and get most of the nodes and keystones that relate to being a summoner. but then, do you want life? Do you want to go CI? Do you want to have exploding minions? Do you want your shield stats to apply to you or your minions?

The options are endless, and really, there are so many viable builds it's staggering. I looked at the skill tree of one of the highest ladder players in Hardcore, and I for the life of me, couldn't make sense out of it, until I saw his gear, and his spell choice.

Then it made sense.

If WoW could have pulled off the large trees, and kept it so that it wasn't such a cookie cutter thing, then I feel the game would have been better for it. In the current iteration, uit feels more like I'm picking new spells every 15 levels, and not actually picking talents.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:22 pm

Would that system work in WoW, where the players all expect the specs to be within a few % of each other in capability?
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:29 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Would that system work in WoW, where the players all expect the specs to be within a few % of each other in capability?


No, they wouldn't. WoW has far too much player history and theorycrafting for that to work. And what happens in 5 years when the level cap is 150?

But, it would lead to lots of new options, that people would cry about till they were nerfed.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:38 pm

halabar wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Would that system work in WoW, where the players all expect the specs to be within a few % of each other in capability?


No, they wouldn't. WoW has far too much player history and theorycrafting for that to work. And what happens in 5 years when the level cap is 150?

But, it would lead to lots of new options, that people would cry about till they were nerfed.


Yep. I think the big customization can only really work well in games where either there isn't a PVP system, or where you actually have freedom in how you go about encounters. P&P RPGs, for example, where you can have a tree that 'makes sense' and may make things harder in some ways but can open up other avenues in others.

When your metric is 'produce/take X DPS/HPS for X amount of time while obeying fixed mechanics' (i.e. kill a boss), it's not hard to believe why things are the way they are.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:43 pm

The biggest suck of Mists is the removal of that "terrible" LFR loot system from DS, and it's replacement with that spawn-of-hell RNG system that we are stuck with now. With all the claims by Blizz that they were making things "fair" it's real purpose was to slow down gearing and make valor farming more critical.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:54 pm

They are adding unlucky streak protection to both LFR and coin rolls in 5.3, so all is fine.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Jabari » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:57 pm

Worldie wrote:They are adding unlucky streak protection to both LFR and coin rolls in 5.3, so all is fine.


Yay! Now I can get 6 extraneous cloaks and necklaces FASTER than before!
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:06 pm

It's very nice to get extra loots when you are enchanter :mrgreen:
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:05 pm

halabar wrote:The biggest suck of Mists is the removal of that "terrible" LFR loot system from DS, and it's replacement with that spawn-of-hell RNG system that we are stuck with now. With all the claims by Blizz that they were making things "fair" it's real purpose was to slow down gearing and make valor farming more critical.


Sorry got nothing out of this post but "The new system sucks because back in DS I could have everyone roll need on everything for me, be geared in 2 weeks and sit on the forums and complain about how I have nothing to do. Now I'm left at the mercy of the same RNG that has been in raids since 2005 and it's not fair"

Worldie wrote:They are adding unlucky streak protection to both LFR and coin rolls in 5.3, so all is fine.

Which will inevitably lead to "This system sucks I got the same piece of gear X times" Same old shit. Argument shifts from "Well my raid can't kill X because we can't get loot" to "Well we would have killed X if we wouldn't have gotten nothing but the same crap every time"
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby bldavis » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:52 pm

honestly, i doubt the PoE system would work for ANY MMO, but works great for a game that you are mostly solo or in small groups and can tailor your class to be specific to how you want to play
in PoE, each class has a set starting point, but there are a ton of ways to play each class. in wow there are only a few ways to play without being severly gimped for each spec, and each class has a set role, or 4.

the new talents may suck while leveling, but i love them for end game content, which lets be honest, wow is all about
the ability to take extra self heals, or raid wide damage reduction as a choice is one i swap a few times a raid night.
depending on what talent you pick, you can have COMPLETELY different playstyles - for example a kitty druid taking dream of cenarius or heart of the wild over nature's vigil - one you can pop out of kitty form and heal halfway decently(or bear form and OT an add), one you weave heals into your rotation for damage boost, and the last one you hit a button, get a damage boost and help heal those around you

i personally hated the new talents when they first came out, but now i have grown to love them, and i think you would too Shoju, given your playstyle of being more solo-ing based

try to solo a boss, something doesnt quite work, hmm lets see what happens if i take this talent instead of this one
instead of reading a website and going ok, this is my talent build, this is where i put all 41 or so points, now you can say ok for this fight this talent is nice, but this one give me something else that will help more - switch!

as for the new LFR loot..i personally dont mind...esp now that they are putting in bad RNG protection
personally i didnt like the old one, esp when i got screwed out of my Tmog set (and 4pc for my priest) when he lost the shoulder token the last week of DS LFR, to someone who was afk the entire fight...
now, if i get gear or not is NOT dependent on other people being asses and needing stuff they have 4 of, or needing when they woke up hearing the loot sounds

now it is just down to you and the dice of RNG, which was always there in the form of you getting the gear to drop in the first place, and then needing to win the roll. 6 healers, 1 healing mace from the boss...you have a 1 in 6 chance of winning IF it drops
you have a 20% chance of getting it? plus your bonus roll so 40%, plus the RNG protection they are putting in, so while yes you MIGHT get additional items (anyone want my 3rd sword from Sha in terrace?) you also have removed a lot of the RNG of gear having to drop, and you having to win the roll...now its just did something drop FOR ME!
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:46 pm

yeah, I think the current loot system, while frustrating at times, is vastly superior to what we had in LFR DS.

If anything, the LFRs now are perhaps evidence that they should have not bothered with the LFR DS, though I'm glad they did because of things like loot abuse and gauging reception.

edited to add: I think probably the biggest downfall of the current LFRs is as simple as player attitude with respect to facerollability and what that means and what it 'should' be.
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