Post your Frustrations.

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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:12 am

Winkle wrote:
Worldie wrote:The QQing going on in the T15 topic is really hurting my faith in the playerbase that follows this forum.


Interestingly the post wasn't written as QQ at all, it just amuses me how you seem to interpret everything as QQ worldie. You're also seemingly pretty good at spouting it yourself when ever priests are mentioned in blue posts.

I at least admit I'm QQing about priests :P

Problem is the majority of the topic is like "Hey, my guild is below average, people don't have the time/will to improve, but we demand to be able to faceroll content that is not designed for us"
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:18 am

My question is... are we really that below average?

Between tier7 and until Tier14, we had cleared all content at least on normal, and some heroic modes here and there, before the next tier would be released.

Tier 14 ended up killing my guild.

You could make an argument about not wanting to improve, but that was one of the benefits of VP vendors on previous expansions... which was taken away from the people that did not want to do dailies. (Because they're optional).
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:23 am

Klaudandus wrote:My question is... are we really that below average?

Between tier7 and until Tier14, we had cleared all content at least on normal, and some heroic modes here and there, before the next tier would be released.

Tier 14 ended up killing my guild.

You could make an argument about not wanting to improve, but that was one of the benefits of VP vendors on previous expansions... which was taken away from the people that did not want to do dailies. (Because they're optional).


I think you added that last bit while I was starting to comment.

I was about to ask if it was actually T-14 raids, or MOP in general that killed your guild. For mine, it certainly wasn't the raids that did it. The common theme I've noted about guild woes seems just as likely to do with it being a new expansion (folks who decided to drop when it hit for various reasons), or with pre-raiding stuff not being what they liked (daily ALL the things, etc.).
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:37 am

It was a mix of everything, but hitting a wall at Garalon (closest we came was 2-3%) and much of the VP gear being behind the rep gate undo our raid.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:39 am

Klaudandus wrote:It was a mix of everything, but hitting a wall at Garalon (closest we came was 2-3%) and much of the VP gear being behind the rep gate undo our raid.

I was surprised that your raid got stuck at Garalon. You guys had a lot more of MSV and HoF kills than my raid group had before we finally started a poke at Garalon. I was worried I'd not catch up!
Last edited by Nikachelle on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:41 am

c'est la vie... so, I wonder, I am really below average? was my group below average? Like I said, T14 was the first time in years we didnt clear all normal modes!

We could have gotten over that bump if more VP stuff was not behind the rep to be honest... several of our raiders didnt like doing dailies...
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:48 am

I think the word average is different for everyone in this context. I certainly don't consider the overall average of what's posted on guildox or wowprogress to be the directly relevant average (since not every guild on there is actually a raiding guild). Average to me, was clearing normal mode this tier, although I did feel drastically behind the curve for a great deal of T14.

Very few times have I actually felt like we've excelled at the game (off the top of my head the ones that stick out are our Algalon kill (which, even then, was after ToC had been released) and early Firelands when we were knocking down bosses faster than I thought possible, especially when compared to what the higher end guilds on our realm were killing).

I also feel that what our "average" is, is utterly dependent on our peer group and the players we surround ourselves with. Ideally, I like when I can see my raid group sitting in the top 15 guilds on my server. So during T14 when we're languishing around positions 40 to 19 (as we crept up slowly) I felt really below average. Also, as a poster on this forum though, I feel I (and my group) am wayyyy below average. But that's just a by-product of posting in a forum where people take their gaming pretty seriously.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:57 am

That's the funny part... For the first month or two of each tier, we would be neck to neck with the more hardcore raids in our server. Heck, we got some server first every now and then.

All of the sudden, we slow down to nothing in T14, and I blame a mix between T14 and the mechanics to acquire the gear implemented in MoP (dailies up to the wazoo).

Our dps wasn't bad, with two of our plate dps doing over 100K dps per boss fight... but on the lower end, our warrior tank was doing below 40K dps on avg. I'd normally do 10-15k more dps than him on fights.

Then the fingerpointing started with some people that did the dailies angry at some people that did not do the dailies because they felt they were holding us back... I did the dailies because I did not want to feel like I was holding the group back and such...
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:28 am

djlar wrote:Trash, from the Turtle to the Hydra, I swear I had nightmares of how much trash we killed on second LFR wing, we wiped more to trash than bosses, that run was little over 2 hours, 3 bosses, 3000 trash mobs, zero loot, they should at least drop some gold..


OMG... the trashfest... the stupidity on the last boss... finally got it last night with 7 freeking stacks. Lame loot table for that wing (for a hunter with my current gear).

NOT GOING BACK. I'll be content with first wing that drops more stuff and is much more tolerable.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:43 am

Klaudandus wrote:My question is... are we really that below average?

Between tier7 and until Tier14, we had cleared all content at least on normal, and some heroic modes here and there, before the next tier would be released. .

What is missing here is what Normal modes are designed for.

Before LFR, Normal modes were for "the random disorganized pug", it was intended that every single guild out there cleared them. Except maybe for T11, the normal modes between T7 and T13 have been extremely easy.

However, now that LFR exists, what was previously Normal mode aims is now LFR aim: the new Normals are not aimed at people who can't/don't want to improve and get a grasp at at least hitting 80% of their DPS potential and refuse to learn mechanics.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:49 am

I'd argue that not all of T8 normal was "extremely" easy. And Lich King normal wasn't either.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:07 am

Arguable, I've joined several disorganized pugs that could clear 10/12 ICC 25 heroic and faceroll the remaining 2 normal modes, and my realm was far from being good. People even usually avoided me cause i was raging at the bads not biting on Lanatel heroic, and we'd still kill it.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Winkle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:16 am

Worldie wrote:Arguable, I've joined several disorganized pugs that could clear 10/12 ICC 25 heroic and faceroll the remaining 2 normal modes, and my realm was far from being good. People even usually avoided me cause i was raging at the bads not biting on Lanatel heroic, and we'd still kill it.


Is that with or without the buff? 10/12 25 HC in ICC without the buff is a pretty spectacular pug if you ask me.

Overall though the difficulty has definitely swung from easy to hard, my guild cleared normal DS week 1, this was kind of unexpected for us and it certainly felt like an easy tier, clearly Blizzard felt the same, if i remember at the time there were a lot of guilds stuck on 1/8hc for a very long time.

Perhaps the new model is better, at the end of the day if people are progressing they're happier than being stuck on one boss i'd wager, perhaps that even includes progressing a tier behind like back in tbc.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:30 am

It's not really a PUG if most of the raid are in raiding guilds, half the people know each other and are on their well maintained alts. I grinded out 35 Shadowmourne shards before 4.0 in trade chat PUGs and we were lucky to get 8 bosses down on normal WITH the 30% buff. Getting to and killing LK was a pipe dream. IMO my experience was far closer to what most people experienced in ICC PUGs than Worldie's.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:56 am

i think the problem is that under the new model, when you hit the wall... you hit the wall.

Previous tiers at least made it easier to overcome the wall but now you can hit the wall so hard that you find it just easier to quit.

I remember heroic spine, and as much as i hated it, i like it more than current bosses because progression, and the means to attain the tools needed to overcome it, felt more within reach
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:04 am

Disagree.

In the Cata model, the idea was "If you hit the wall, don't worry cause it will eventually be dumbed down so much that you can kill it".
You didn't improve in this model, the content just was made easier.

The current model is "If you hit the wall, you improve and pass the wall".
Remember more or less none of the bosses of ToT (Bar maybe the last handful) are DPS checks: They are all about not failing at mechanics.

Even the so dreaded Horridon, is just about "kill adds, interrupt anything that's interruptable, don't stand in shit, loot".


I think I could dig up several posts from DS era, with people complaining "We don't like the debuff mechanic, cause killing it after another wave of debuff just feels bad".
Surprised to see the same people now complaining about the new syste,.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:17 am

I dont think i ever complained about the raid debuff.

That said, even if the content was dumbed down, you still needed to do the mechanics on several of the fights, so its not like it was 30% = insta loot on heroic like you imply it is. Maybe could be true with players like yourself, but really... You are an outlier.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:27 am

Klaudandus wrote:Previous tiers at least made it easier to overcome the wall but now you can hit the wall so hard that you find it just easier to quit.


With all due respect if the difficulty of a boss makes you want to quit you shouldn't raiding to start with.

Halabar wrote:OMG... the trashfest... the stupidity on the last boss... finally got it last night with 7 freeking stacks. Lame loot table for that wing (for a hunter with my current gear).

NOT GOING BACK. I'll be content with first wing that drops more stuff and is much more tolerable.


Ji-Kun is a joke. Our group ended up deciding after the third nest that it wasn't even worth taking dps off the boss and just burned the boss. Got a little out of control near the 5% mark but still killed it easily. Then again if I can't get into the new LFR in the first few hours the server is up I don't bother. If I can't catch a group of mostly raider mains or alts and get stuck with the retarded masses I save myself the trouble and just don't bother.

That being said Gary The Snail is now the deadliest raid boss. We had probably 20 deaths on the trash as opposed to the maybe 6 deaths we had on bosses.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Winkle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:42 am

Teranoid wrote:
With all due respect if the difficulty of a boss makes you want to quit you shouldn't raiding to start with.


I don't think that would be considered to be very good game design. And is part of the reason LFR was actually introduced in the 1st place.

It's interesting that if Klaudandus and his entire guild quite the game it's considered their problem and not Blizzard's. I suspect Blizzard might take a different view.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:42 am

Teranoid wrote:
Halabar wrote:OMG... the trashfest... the stupidity on the last boss... finally got it last night with 7 freeking stacks. Lame loot table for that wing (for a hunter with my current gear).

NOT GOING BACK. I'll be content with first wing that drops more stuff and is much more tolerable.


Ji-Kun is a joke. Our group ended up deciding after the third nest that it wasn't even worth taking dps off the boss and just burned the boss. Got a little out of control near the 5% mark but still killed it easily. Then again if I can't get into the new LFR in the first few hours the server is up I don't bother. If I can't catch a group of mostly raider mains or alts and get stuck with the retarded masses I save myself the trouble and just don't bother.

That being said Gary The Snail is now the deadliest raid boss. We had probably 20 deaths on the trash as opposed to the maybe 6 deaths we had on bosses.


Either the heals or the bottom end of the dps were not up to that. We were trying focusing on the boss, and were still wiping at 20-40%. Didn't help that each time 4-5 people dropped so we'ed have new idiots who hadn't seen the boss and/or bitter ones because they were getting the last boss. Add in an AFKer and idiots who had to do it their own way..

7 freeking stacks before it died. Add in that trash.. Add in crappy loot table (from my personal gear needs), and never going back unless I need that lfr tier leg token.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:55 am

Winkle wrote:
Teranoid wrote:
With all due respect if the difficulty of a boss makes you want to quit you shouldn't raiding to start with.


I don't think that would be considered to be very good game design. And is part of the reason LFR was actually introduced in the 1st place.

It's interesting that if Klaudandus and his entire guild quite the game it's considered their problem and not Blizzard's. I suspect Blizzard might take a different view.


It's impossible, not to mention delusional, to expect Blizzard to make content that will keep every single person interested and to even hint at the fact that people throwing in the towel for whatever reason is solely on Blizzard is laughable. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out good portion of the playerbase is all about the "Gimme gimme gimme" and if bosses don't fall over in the first two weeks it's a design flaw and not a flaw in their execution/raid comp. I'm not saying Klaud's group didn't make the effort because as we've all read they tried. I just don't subscribe to the theory that the best way to overcome something it to simply throw your hands up and walk away.

It's so much easier to blame someone else than it is to admit the fact that it quite possibly could be yourself.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Winkle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:10 am

Teranoid wrote:It's so much easier to blame someone else than it is to admit the fact that it quite possibly could be yourself.


TBH it doesn't matter who's at fault, if people are walking away from the game, whatever the reason, then its probably something Blizzard would be concerned about.

The whole reason LFR was introduced was partly because telling people to man up or shut up wasn't going to cut it.

I'm not sure why so many people are against trying to solve this issue anyway, a more popular wow is better for everyone assuming that solving an issue doesn't influence other people's content.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:12 am

We could have eked out a wee bit more hps and wee bit more dps out of our raid in general... Had vp gear not being locked behind rep...

I am almost sure we could have killed garalon as early as two weeks before xmas had not this been the case.

That was the problem, really... To improve, my raiders were pretty much told to do stuff that they had no real interest in, be it lfr or dailies (to get the rep), but also was said that this was optional... Some tried and got burned out and quit... Others didnt bother and were accused of holding the team back.

Again, this was not a problem in previous expansions...
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:17 am

Klaudandus wrote:We could have gotten over that bump if more VP stuff was not behind the rep to be honest... several of our raiders didnt like doing dailies...


So I'm guessing everyone was extremely unlucky in MSV? Because that looks to be a sure place better to get 489 gear for guilds that can clear it.

Blaming it on lack of Valor gear seems like a copout for a guild that can clear MSV.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:20 am

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:We could have gotten over that bump if more VP stuff was not behind the rep to be honest... several of our raiders didnt like doing dailies...


So I'm guessing everyone was extremely unlucky in MSV? Because that looks to be a sure place better to get 489 gear for guilds that can clear it.

Blaming it on lack of Valor gear seems like a copout for a guild that can clear MSV.


Actually, yes... Our frost dk and our fury warrior never got weapons better than the lfr ones because they never dropped in msv

Never saw trinkets from msv either...
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