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Mana Issues/Tanking

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Mana Issues/Tanking

Postby Caerdwynn » Tue May 22, 2007 4:20 pm

So, I logged in, respecced, and got myself into a non-heroic SH run as MT. Pally healer, one I normally run with, understands how SA works. Good group, high DPS, etc. Should have been a good run.

I went through three stacks of water. I was stopping to drink every other pull. I ended up switching from SoR to SoB just so I was taking extra damage. By the end of the run, I had switched out to my Hammer of the Naaru just so I could get beat on and grab some mana back.

I'm looking for suggestions. I don't want to change my gear for int or mp5 at this point. Whaddya guys think? Mana oil, mana pots, mp5 food buffs? Any other ideas?

It was bad. It wasn't horrible. The sky isn't falling. But damnit, there's gotta be a more efficient way to deal with it.

Thanks,
~Caer
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Postby Seiher » Tue May 22, 2007 4:39 pm

After looking at your armory I would suggest going with some lighter gear when running reg 5 mans. The Righteous set should do fine. For heroics then throw on the better gear
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Postby Kvaern » Tue May 22, 2007 4:39 pm

I pity those tankadins who didn't make it past normal 5 man instances before the nerf.

Nerfing SA w/o giving prot pallies something else to make up for it is such a load of bullshit.

and no I don't mind the nerf in itself, holy pallies having pretty much infinte mana with a shadow priest around was OP.
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Postby Karathos » Tue May 22, 2007 4:43 pm

help us out here ....

what is your def/avoidance/mitigation/etc?

were you overgeared for the run? (i.e. raid gear uncrushable in a 5 man?)

help us help you :)

[sometimes the best answers are the easiest ones] :)
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Postby Caerdwynn » Tue May 22, 2007 4:48 pm

I started the run in my 5-man set, which is about 500 def, 98ish % avoidance, 15k armor (56% ? mitigation), 11kish hps, 5k mana.

Like I said, I'm not in crisis-mode. It's do-able. I like the suggestion of downgrading a bit for tanking that stuff.. I just have a problem not being the best tank I can be in some of those situations ;) Next time, I'll try doing it in the spelldamage set that I wear when I'm out soloing.

There are times in heroics when it's like that too, though.. heroic slave pens, for example - other than the defender pulls and bosses - is generally cake to get through.. chunks of heroic mechanar, too.

I'm not so much looking for a fix as I am for suggestions of things I may have missed to help regen some of the mana while tanking. The gear-swap is a good example.
Last edited by Caerdwynn on Tue May 22, 2007 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Everlight » Tue May 22, 2007 4:49 pm

Note, I haven't done SH since the patch.

A couple of SH runs ago, the whole party (!) forgot to bring water, so we only had like 10-15 water each. As such, we had to buckle right down to a heavy mana optimization mode. Incredibly, it was one of the faster runs I'd had, though threat was a bit tentative. What did I do?

I AOE tanked everything, swinging with Seal of Wisdom and relying on reflected damage to hold the mobs. It worked FINE. The only problem was that when a mob did get away he was harder to get back because I couldn't taunt & instajudge on him.

My suggestion therefore (and I'll be testing this myself) would be to tank those 5-mans with reflected damage (which is highly mana efficient), and swing away with Seal of Wisdom to keep your mana up.

Also, I've been assembling a 5-man set, which eschews massive avoidance for more block & spell power. You may wish to do the same.
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Postby Caerdwynn » Tue May 22, 2007 4:52 pm

Heh, speaking of gearing down. One of the warriors in my guild said he's had issues with this kinda stuff and rage generation. When the avoidance gets to high, he cant generate rage. So what was his advice as a tried and tested tank?

"Tank without pants."
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Postby Everlight » Tue May 22, 2007 4:53 pm

Caerdwynn wrote:I just have a problem not being the best tank I can be in some of those situations ;) Next time, I'll try doing it in the spelldamage set that I wear when I'm out soloing.


It's the same thing as back in the old days. Remember how your 8/8 Wrath-equipped Warriors used to have to tank Strat with a 2-hander or no chestpiece so they could get rage?

We're banging into the same problem. All you need to do is trade in enough avoidance for spellpower that you're lifting the threat ceiling and taking enough damage to sustain it.

And additional spellpower = faster runs, as long as your healers can keep up with the increased damage you're taking.
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Postby Gehrond » Tue May 22, 2007 5:43 pm

4/5 Righteous is great for non-heroics.

I have this problem in my raid/offtank sets, I use more of a grinding set for the extra mana/threat. Lets you down rank and not have to spam judgement to hold aggro as well.
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Postby veig » Tue May 22, 2007 9:34 pm

in pure theory, you want to get the bare minimum avoidance, stack block, stam, and dmg and blow stuff up... or tank three pulls at once, when 15 mobs are hitting you, atleast one is gonna get through every once and a while.
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Postby Coldaan » Wed May 23, 2007 1:12 am

yeah, i think the best (and most entertaining) way to deal with this issue is to just pull several packs of mobs.

if you have mana issues with 1 pack you don't get enough damage.
so pull 3 packs, AOE tank them all and let the dps pick one after another.

of course this probably can't be done everywhere because of some annoying abilities some mobs have, but it should be doable almost everywhere.^^
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Postby Loladin » Wed May 23, 2007 5:53 am

I had the same issues in Botanica yesterday.

Too bad I vendored the righteous gear I replaced. =(
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Postby Alixander » Wed May 23, 2007 7:18 am

Coldaan wrote:yeah, i think the best (and most entertaining) way to deal with this issue is to just pull several packs of mobs.

if you have mana issues with 1 pack you don't get enough damage.
so pull 3 packs, AOE tank them all and let the dps pick one after another.

of course this probably can't be done everywhere because of some annoying abilities some mobs have, but it should be doable almost everywhere.^^
The only issue I can see with this plan is that it could put a severe strain on healer MP. It's trading one form of downtime for another. Is that really what we want?

Maybe it's just me, but if we're really having issues in 5-mans, I think the obvious answer is get more Mana/5. Since we don't need as much avoidance in 5-mans as we do raids, get full Righteous, plus a few other plate pieces that have mana/5, and that should be a big help. Another option is swap out BoSanc for BoW.

On the other hand, according to Jensaarai's post over in the 2.1 first impressions thread, mana is an issue no matter what the situation, which means that all that we just need more mana/5. As he(?) went on it became less of a problem, which means that the earlier issues was just a case of not taking enough damage. If that's the situation then again, I think the answer is not "take more damage" but "get more mana regen".
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed May 23, 2007 11:03 am

Alixander wrote:
Coldaan wrote:yeah, i think the best (and most entertaining) way to deal with this issue is to just pull several packs of mobs.

if you have mana issues with 1 pack you don't get enough damage.
so pull 3 packs, AOE tank them all and let the dps pick one after another.

of course this probably can't be done everywhere because of some annoying abilities some mobs have, but it should be doable almost everywhere.^^
The only issue I can see with this plan is that it could put a severe strain on healer MP. It's trading one form of downtime for another. Is that really what we want?

Maybe it's just me, but if we're really having issues in 5-mans, I think the obvious answer is get more Mana/5. Since we don't need as much avoidance in 5-mans as we do raids, get full Righteous, plus a few other plate pieces that have mana/5, and that should be a big help. Another option is swap out BoSanc for BoW.

On the other hand, according to Jensaarai's post over in the 2.1 first impressions thread, mana is an issue no matter what the situation, which means that all that we just need more mana/5. As he(?) went on it became less of a problem, which means that the earlier issues was just a case of not taking enough damage. If that's the situation then again, I think the answer is not "take more damage" but "get more mana regen".


In a 5 man, healer MP is meaningless. If you're mitigating all incoming damage and holding aggro on mobs such that other people do not need heals, then what is the healer doing with his mana? Smiting things? Moonfire? Holy Shock? The best thing for you to be doing is tanking enough mobs such that the healer actually can help you hold aggro by healing you taking enough damage.

Also, on the subject of what to do when you aren't getting enough mana, taking off your pants is in fact the tried and true method, and I highly recommend it. But, if you want some extra help and don't mind a little farming, I suggest stocking up on Demonic Runes (from L50-60 demons, like in Felwood) and Dark Runes (Scholo). You use it, and you take damage and gain mana all at once. Then your healer can heal the damage you took and you gain MORE mana. Great for those bosses where you can't really pull extra mobs but don't hit very hard.
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Another Mana/Tanking Question

Postby DraenorGauss » Wed May 23, 2007 2:05 pm

I have a related question (somewhat related) to Caerdwynn's regarding mana/tanking. For the record, I'm new to pally tanking...just re-spec'd a while ago and am getting used to it.

That said, my question is:

Why do most Main Tankadins place so much emphasis on gear to increase dodge/parry/block versus +int gear to increase mana?

In 5-mans, I routinely burn through most of my mana (~7K) tanking 3/4-thug mobs. I can hold aggro, for the most part, but if I weren't constantly re-judging, consecrating, etc. I would lose aggro to one of the DPS monsters in the group such as a rogue, mage, or warlock -- even w/BoS on all of them. I often drain mana, but almost never (gulp) run out of health during a typical pull.

Maybe I can get away with having +int gear instead of +dodge/parry/block gear in the 5-mans but raids/heroics are a different story?

BTW...my typical pull involves:
Retribution Aura
Seal of the Crusader
Avenger's Shield
Judgement of the Crusader
Consecrate (as often as cooldown/mana permits)
Holy Shield (as often as cooldown/mana permits)
Up/Judge Seal of Righteousness (as often as cooldown/mana permits)

Dodge = 6.34%
Parry = 10.24%
Block = 8.79%

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draenor&n=Gauss

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Last edited by DraenorGauss on Wed May 23, 2007 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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