SoV fucked up by latest PTR Update?!
Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen
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SoV fucked up by latest PTR Update?!
I just read in the official forums about a change on SoV and then logged on to the PTR... i got some really discussing numbers of Holy DMG for the SoV Ticks:
0 Spelldmg (Kings Defender)
31 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
157 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
199 Spelldmg ("Hammer der Aufgedeckten Geheimnisse" +40 Spelldmg)
39 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
193 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
161 Spelldmg (Kontinuumblade + 40 Spelldmg)
37 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
186 Holy/Tick  5 Stacks
190 Spelldmg (Crusader Judgement)
38 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
164 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
199 Spelldmg + Crusader Judgement
45 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
199 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
161 Spelldmg + Crusader Judgement
44 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
193 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
Does andone has a clue, why it ticks for more than 30 wil NO Spelldmg equipped?! Also Crusader Judgement almost hast no fucking effect... that really fucks me up right now
0 Spelldmg (Kings Defender)
31 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
157 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
199 Spelldmg ("Hammer der Aufgedeckten Geheimnisse" +40 Spelldmg)
39 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
193 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
161 Spelldmg (Kontinuumblade + 40 Spelldmg)
37 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
186 Holy/Tick  5 Stacks
190 Spelldmg (Crusader Judgement)
38 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
164 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
199 Spelldmg + Crusader Judgement
45 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
199 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
161 Spelldmg + Crusader Judgement
44 Holydmg/Tick  1 Stack
193 Holydmg/Tick  5 Stacks
Does andone has a clue, why it ticks for more than 30 wil NO Spelldmg equipped?! Also Crusader Judgement almost hast no fucking effect... that really fucks me up right now
 Lev
 Posts: 181
 Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 11:18 pm
 Location: Germany
 Lev
 Posts: 181
 Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 11:18 pm
 Location: Germany
Well... patch is out now and on the live servers it is like on the latest ptr where i found this out...
I put on NO spelldmg and get 157 ticks. With above 400 Spelldmg (including 190 from JoC) I get 216 per tick... without JoC it is at 210. So JoC will not be used anymore...
And now i ask you... can you find any math in these numbers?
I put on NO spelldmg and get 157 ticks. With above 400 Spelldmg (including 190 from JoC) I get 216 per tick... without JoC it is at 210. So JoC will not be used anymore...
And now i ask you... can you find any math in these numbers?
 Lev
 Posts: 181
 Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 11:18 pm
 Location: Germany
I once read some numbercrunching which suggested that Seal of Command has two coefficients  one for +spell damage and a different one for +holy damage. Almost irrelevant given how little +holy gear there is in the game, but JotC is +holy...
Maybe Vengeance is working the same way.
Maybe Vengeance is working the same way.
"It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock..."
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
 Arcand
 Moderator
 Posts: 4525
 Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am
It's been a couple weeks since Excel and I unleashed a Monte Carlo beatdown on something, so I made a sheet to simulate SoV stacking on a bad guy to see just how much of a problem the falloff is.
What I found is that either my model is deficient, or Holy Vengeance falloffs are sticking in our memories and giving us an unfair impression of SoV.
I calculated proc chance using 20 procs per minute, so the chance on a hit was (weapon speed)/3.00.
Commanding myself to be conservative, I gave the notional tankadin a 5.6% chance to miss, to be parried, to be dodged and to be (completely) blocked.
I assumed a weapon speed of 1.80, so each damaging hit had a 60% chance to proc Holy Vengeance. Per the above, each attack had a (10.224)x0.6 = 46.56% chance to apply HV.
Results in a minute, got a student...
What I found is that either my model is deficient, or Holy Vengeance falloffs are sticking in our memories and giving us an unfair impression of SoV.
I calculated proc chance using 20 procs per minute, so the chance on a hit was (weapon speed)/3.00.
Commanding myself to be conservative, I gave the notional tankadin a 5.6% chance to miss, to be parried, to be dodged and to be (completely) blocked.
I assumed a weapon speed of 1.80, so each damaging hit had a 60% chance to proc Holy Vengeance. Per the above, each attack had a (10.224)x0.6 = 46.56% chance to apply HV.
Results in a minute, got a student...
"It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock..."
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
 Arcand
 Moderator
 Posts: 4525
 Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am
Arcand wrote:What I found is that either my model is deficient, or Holy Vengeance falloffs are sticking in our memories and giving us an unfair impression of SoV.
The fact that it can fall off at ALL is the issue here.
Also you forgot Resists.

Sabindeus  Moderator
 Posts: 10494
 Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am
I did forget resists. However, I'm still finding that the average stack size is pretty high. Once I get the average stack number nailed down I'm going to compare the longterm threat generation against SoR/JoR.
This weekend I tanked Romulo and the Curator with SoV, so we can get some reallife numbers and compare those against SoR/JoR as well.
Off to tweak the refresh rate, updated numbers in a few minutes I hope.
This weekend I tanked Romulo and the Curator with SoV, so we can get some reallife numbers and compare those against SoR/JoR as well.
Off to tweak the refresh rate, updated numbers in a few minutes I hope.
"It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock..."
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
 Arcand
 Moderator
 Posts: 4525
 Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am
Okay. Because my mage is level 54 I remain blissfully ignorant of spell resist rates against raid bosses, so I decided our notional bad guy has an 8% resist rate. (5% base plus 1% per level difference  I'm trying to be hard on SoV here.)
I ran sixty fiveminute simulations, with a 1.80 speed weapon, first attack happens 1.80 seconds in.
Out of 60 runs...
7 runs had an average stack of less than 4 over the 5minute period.
The worst run had an average stack size of 3.69.
The best run had an average stack size of 4.88.
The mean stack size was 4.40 with a sample standard deviation of 0.30.
That indicates that 99% of the time, your average stack will be 3.7 or better.
I don't remember the numbers for JoV, but once I have them I'll be doing a threat comparison against SoR/JoR. I expect to find that while you don't want to open a fight with SoV and dare the magi to pop trinkets and try to pull aggro off you, SoV is reliable enough to outperform SoR in the long haul.
I ran sixty fiveminute simulations, with a 1.80 speed weapon, first attack happens 1.80 seconds in.
Out of 60 runs...
7 runs had an average stack of less than 4 over the 5minute period.
The worst run had an average stack size of 3.69.
The best run had an average stack size of 4.88.
The mean stack size was 4.40 with a sample standard deviation of 0.30.
That indicates that 99% of the time, your average stack will be 3.7 or better.
I don't remember the numbers for JoV, but once I have them I'll be doing a threat comparison against SoR/JoR. I expect to find that while you don't want to open a fight with SoV and dare the magi to pop trinkets and try to pull aggro off you, SoV is reliable enough to outperform SoR in the long haul.
"It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock..."
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
 Arcand
 Moderator
 Posts: 4525
 Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am
The problem I have with SoV is that few bosses just let you sit there and whack away at them. They fear, stun, throw you in the air, toss you across the room, fly away, etc. which makes keeping SoV very difficult.

honorshammer  Moderator
 Posts: 2158
 Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 am
 Location: Charleston, SC
Lore wrote:I believe mob resist chance as a level 73 is something more like 17%.
(Temporarily dumbfounded)
Okay, ignore the above then. I'll recompute ASAP.
"It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock..."
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
1.0 Paladin: Never forget. Never forgive.
 Arcand
 Moderator
 Posts: 4525
 Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am
Check here: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/spells.html
About halfway down the page, it gives a base 83% chance to hit with spells vs +3 level mobs, so yeah, 17% chance for resist.
About halfway down the page, it gives a base 83% chance to hit with spells vs +3 level mobs, so yeah, 17% chance for resist.

Lore  Global Mod
 Posts: 7757
 Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am
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