Tseric resigns

Anything, including off-topic posts

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Postby Anaro » Tue May 22, 2007 8:50 am

Egomantle wrote:My own brand of optimism is to assume that the game designers have access to a broad array of real data. Things like:
  • Actual populations
  • Outcomes of duels
  • Outcomes of world pvp
  • Outcomes of Arenas and BGs
  • Makeup of PvP teams
  • real DPS (max and average)
  • Variety in specs
  • gearing variety
  • a whole heap of juicy stats
  • simulation results for any aspect of the game

I downplay the forums as a source of design because:
  • most players don't post to the forums
  • most forum post repeat received wisdom without any actual insight.
  • most players only see benefits of the other classes without seeing the drawbacks.

Detailed review of the WoW forums is able to tell that a vocal subset of players think:
  • they are under powered
  • their class doesn't get enough attention, and
  • courtesy is overrated.


Forums, despite their many limitations and weaknesses, esp in the manner and volume that people tend to respond, are an invaluable source of feedback for both players and devs. Yes, you have to sift through the trash, but I tend to agree with Lore in that CMs hold a very powerful position regarding what gets passed to Devs or not. Devs may post/read/enjoy the forums, but they don't do it full time. CMs do. And honestly, if the CM doesn't perform any kind of feedback to the Devs, then why do they even exist? And for that matter, if the forums are completely devoid of any quality, why do they exist?

My thoughts anyway.

-Anaro


PS I highly doubt that outcomes of duels are tracked in any meaningful manner. But that's just me.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 24, 2007 11:17 am

Not to necro threads too hard, but this blog is relevant to the topic and I think it's well worth reading the posts Sanya has made to see exactly why I have the pessimism I do about community management.

http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/
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Postby Lore » Thu May 24, 2007 11:48 am

I was once a manager for a Burger King. Every day, I got to deal with people who would complain about the most ridiculous things, often that didn't even bother them; they were just trying to score some free food. I once came by on one of my days off and noticed that the people there were very busy, with customers waiting for their order to be taken, so I set my food on a table and hopped behind the counter to help take orders. The lady who was first in line immediately informed me just how disgusted and angry she was that I would dare work without my uniform on. I had all sorts of things to say to her, but I couldn't; it was my job to be nice to customers. So instead of getting to chew her out for being retarded, I got to give her a complimentary apple pie (which came out of my paycheck). And I had to do it all with a smile.

It's very easy to sit behind a keyboard and claim that dealing with idiots all day is "not hard." The article you linked (which seems to be very clearly pointed at Tseric) insists that, not only should he care deeply about every single customer, but ALSO that he should ignore the screaming forum trolls or people who will be angry no matter what. Unfortunately, the two statements are contradictory.

Here's the beef: Tseric cared about his job. He cared about the people he responded to. He might not have been the nicest person on the boards, he might not have always been correct in his statements (or worded them properly, pop enrage anyone?), and a lot of times he was very blunt with people. But he cared, and that's why he flipped out. He cared about what everyone had to say, and yet he continued to receive all sorts of flak from all sorts of people. Tell me - if your best friend called you 100 times a day to tell you you're stupid, you're a failure, and you should kill yourself, do you think you'd be able to shrug it off? I somewhat doubt it.

Was flipping out on the boards okay? Of course not. Is it excusable? No way. He made a bad choice and as a result, left the company. But claiming his position was "easy" so long as you "care about the customers" is asinine. I would argue the opposite - the more you care about the customers, the harder the position is.
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Postby Daeren » Thu May 24, 2007 12:22 pm

Oh well, I would get angry at the old lady there at least. When I'm working as a nurse (summer job) or working as a medical student at the hospital, I tend to prefer a harsh tone, because customers (or in my case patients) will know that they can ask for more if you let them.

And yes, so0me people may have seen Tseric as a bit offtopic too often, but then again...

it was long between the answers and the answers we got was full of bullcrap.
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Postby Jensaarai » Thu May 24, 2007 1:43 pm

I'm all for bashing of the general WoW Forum population. 90% of them are douchebags and need a wake-up call, like that lady at the counter. I work at a Togo's, I'm a manager, and I would not have given that lady an apple pie out of my paycheck :) she would be told "sorry, ma'am, I'm actually not scheduled to work right now, I'm doing these guys a favor because they're busy. What kind of bread do you want that on?"

When I read what Tseric said I smiled, big. I was happy he was taking shots at those ungrateful, rude pieces of flesh, and I was sorry to see him go.


As you can tell, I do not like rude, obnoxious, stupid people in the least. I will not put up with you. :)
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 24, 2007 2:35 pm

Lore wrote:I was once a manager for a Burger King. Every day, I got to deal with people who would complain about the most ridiculous things, often that didn't even bother them; they were just trying to score some free food. I once came by on one of my days off and noticed that the people there were very busy, with customers waiting for their order to be taken, so I set my food on a table and hopped behind the counter to help take orders. The lady who was first in line immediately informed me just how disgusted and angry she was that I would dare work without my uniform on. I had all sorts of things to say to her, but I couldn't; it was my job to be nice to customers. So instead of getting to chew her out for being retarded, I got to give her a complimentary apple pie (which came out of my paycheck). And I had to do it all with a smile.

It's very easy to sit behind a keyboard and claim that dealing with idiots all day is "not hard." The article you linked (which seems to be very clearly pointed at Tseric) insists that, not only should he care deeply about every single customer, but ALSO that he should ignore the screaming forum trolls or people who will be angry no matter what. Unfortunately, the two statements are contradictory.

Here's the beef: Tseric cared about his job. He cared about the people he responded to. He might not have been the nicest person on the boards, he might not have always been correct in his statements (or worded them properly, pop enrage anyone?), and a lot of times he was very blunt with people. But he cared, and that's why he flipped out. He cared about what everyone had to say, and yet he continued to receive all sorts of flak from all sorts of people. Tell me - if your best friend called you 100 times a day to tell you you're stupid, you're a failure, and you should kill yourself, do you think you'd be able to shrug it off? I somewhat doubt it.

Was flipping out on the boards okay? Of course not. Is it excusable? No way. He made a bad choice and as a result, left the company. But claiming his position was "easy" so long as you "care about the customers" is asinine. I would argue the opposite - the more you care about the customers, the harder the position is.


Who made the claim that community management is not hard in an absolute sense? The claim that Sanya made in that article was that, if you are going to have a job in community management, you'd better really enjoy it. This is even to the extent of masochism, or at least that is what it seems from what I know the job entails. And if you are masochistic enough to be a professional community manager, the job is, in fact, not that hard.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 24, 2007 2:56 pm

Lore wrote:The article you linked (which seems to be very clearly pointed at Tseric) insists that, not only should he care deeply about every single customer, but ALSO that he should ignore the screaming forum trolls or people who will be angry no matter what. Unfortunately, the two statements are contradictory.


That's not at all contradictory. I was the lead developer on some software for the Air Force, deployed to around 40,000 folks. We had a helpdesk setup to handle trouble calls, but fairly often they'd get something they couldn't handle and would pass the calls through to me. People would complain about the software I'd written left and right, which is something far more personal than what Tseric had to deal with. It was not remotely difficult to ignore the garbage and focus on the appropriate stuff, it would have been a lot easier to not do that if I didn't care.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 24, 2007 3:02 pm

Jensaarai wrote:I'm all for bashing of the general WoW Forum population. 90% of them are douchebags and need a wake-up call, like that lady at the counter. I work at a Togo's, I'm a manager, and I would not have given that lady an apple pie out of my paycheck :) she would be told "sorry, ma'am, I'm actually not scheduled to work right now, I'm doing these guys a favor because they're busy. What kind of bread do you want that on?"

When I read what Tseric said I smiled, big. I was happy he was taking shots at those ungrateful, rude pieces of flesh, and I was sorry to see him go.


As you can tell, I do not like rude, obnoxious, stupid people in the least. I will not put up with you. :)


I think we can all agree that some of the community needs to be smacked around a bit. However, there's not really any way to do it that will work out well. Remember how well Caydiem's posts on civil discourse were received? The trolls don't care, and the many posters who do post with appropriate comments are instantly lumped in with the trolls and get frustrated about being lectured to. All chastizing trolls accomplishes is generating more trolls or empowers the current trolls. In that regard, the CMs do an extremely lousy job accross the board. They constantly post with passive aggressive insults that does nothing but incite more trolling.
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