Tseric resigns

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Tseric resigns

Postby Lore » Fri May 18, 2007 11:28 am

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... =1&sid=1#1

TBH this is probably a good thing for us, I didn't mind him much as a person (he at least made me laugh) but he'd been giving us the large portion of our feedback and classes he was working with have historically had it pretty bad.

Here's hoping for Nethaera.
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri May 18, 2007 11:51 am

I doubt that the CM posting the news affects at all whether the news is good.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri May 18, 2007 11:54 am

Sabindeus wrote:I doubt that the CM posting the news affects at all whether the news is good.


...but it may affect the quality and quantity of feedback that makes it back to the devs.
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Postby Lore » Fri May 18, 2007 11:56 am

The CM also presents the views of the community to the devs. It's up to them to decide what to tell the devs that the class needs. That's a VERY influential part of the process.

EDIT: Dorvan sucks =(
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri May 18, 2007 12:13 pm

Lore wrote:The CM also presents the views of the community to the devs. It's up to them to decide what to tell the devs that the class needs. That's a VERY influential part of the process.

EDIT: Dorvan sucks =(


Sure. But, to be fair, the devs read the forums too.

I also think that you can't accurately form any sort of opinion on how good a CM is at collecting user feedback from his or her public face on the forums. For all you know, Tseric's info was perfectly collated and tabulated in all conceivable ways, and the devs just hate us.
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Postby Lore » Fri May 18, 2007 12:20 pm

I find that just about any point can be made if presented properly :P
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Postby s4dfish » Fri May 18, 2007 1:38 pm

Lore wrote:I find that just about any point can be made if presented properly :P
So, can we expect a career change in your future? :P
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri May 18, 2007 2:15 pm

Lore wrote:I find that just about any point can be made if presented properly :P


I find that any properly presented point can be ignored if you don't agree with it. :P
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Postby Lore » Fri May 18, 2007 2:29 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Lore wrote:I find that just about any point can be made if presented properly :P


I find that any properly presented point can be ignored if you don't agree with it. :P


And allowing yourself to be ignored is a surefire way to never get your point across ;)

I never said he was a bad CM, just that historically, things haven't worked out super well for the classes he's been assigned to. There's any number of reasons that could be the case, and not all of the possible options would indicate that Tseric was to blame. But that's how it is.
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Postby Theowyn » Sun May 20, 2007 2:43 am

so much touche in a row, it's overwhelming!
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon May 21, 2007 7:55 am

Lore wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Lore wrote:I find that just about any point can be made if presented properly :P


I find that any properly presented point can be ignored if you don't agree with it. :P


And allowing yourself to be ignored is a surefire way to never get your point across ;)

I never said he was a bad CM, just that historically, things haven't worked out super well for the classes he's been assigned to. There's any number of reasons that could be the case, and not all of the possible options would indicate that Tseric was to blame. But that's how it is.


You really don't have a choice in whether or not the developers ignore you when they make design decisions for our class. No matter how loud you yell, or how well presented your data is... or even how good a job the Community Managers do in presenting this data to the developers, they can always just say, "No, I disagree, and I don't feel like explaining myself." Sad, but true.
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Postby Lore » Mon May 21, 2007 8:19 am

Sabindeus wrote:You really don't have a choice in whether or not the developers ignore you when they make design decisions for our class. No matter how loud you yell, or how well presented your data is... or even how good a job the Community Managers do in presenting this data to the developers, they can always just say, "No, I disagree, and I don't feel like explaining myself." Sad, but true.


Forgive me for being a bit optimistic, but I'm going to hold out the hope that the developers will actually listen to what the CM's pass on.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon May 21, 2007 8:46 am

Lore wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:You really don't have a choice in whether or not the developers ignore you when they make design decisions for our class. No matter how loud you yell, or how well presented your data is... or even how good a job the Community Managers do in presenting this data to the developers, they can always just say, "No, I disagree, and I don't feel like explaining myself." Sad, but true.


Forgive me for being a bit optimistic, but I'm going to hold out the hope that the developers will actually listen to what the CM's pass on.


All that does is shift the blame from the developers to the CMs when we don't get what we think is best for the class.

I prefer to take the more realistic view that the developers don't live in isolation chambers, and actually do hear what the players say about the game, but have a different point of view.
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Postby Lore » Mon May 21, 2007 9:19 am

Of course they hear what the players say about the game. That comes primarily from the CMs, whose job is to collect and tabulate what the players are saying and present it to them during meetings. I don't doubt that the devs look at the forums and talk to players, but that's not their primary source of feedback. They have their own views and plans for the class, sure. The CM has to relate what the players feel about those views and plans, as well as any issues players are having following those views and plans. The feedback the developers then give is influenced, at least partially, by the feedback given by the CM.

I'm not placing all of the blame on the CM's, but you can't argue that they hold a very influential position. As long as the possibility exists that that person's influence was being used poorly, it cannot be ruled out.

Say you're at a carnival, and there's a merry go round. There's many booths that you could sit in, but when your booth comes up the carnie mentions that more people have fallen out of that particular booth than all the other booths combined. It doesn't look particularly unsafe, but do you take your chances or let that booth pass? It could very easily be that people who have ridden in that booth were just stupid, and it's pure coincidence that they all rode there. Personally, I'd rather not take the risk.
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Postby Egomantle » Mon May 21, 2007 9:54 pm

My own brand of optimism is to assume that the game designers have access to a broad array of real data. Things like:
  • Actual populations
  • Outcomes of duels
  • Outcomes of world pvp
  • Outcomes of Arenas and BGs
  • Makeup of PvP teams
  • real DPS (max and average)
  • Variety in specs
  • gearing variety
  • a whole heap of juicy stats
  • simulation results for any aspect of the game

I downplay the forums as a source of design because:
  • most players don't post to the forums
  • most forum post repeat received wisdom without any actual insight.
  • most players only see benefits of the other classes without seeing the drawbacks.

Detailed review of the WoW forums is able to tell that a vocal subset of players think:
  • they are under powered
  • their class doesn't get enough attention, and
  • courtesy is overrated.
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