2 Seal Questions

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2 Seal Questions

Postby Anaro » Wed May 16, 2007 4:18 pm

I have 2 seal questions here, and I hope I haven't missed some post somewhere that's answered them, I did perform a cursory check at least.

1) Seal of Vengeance has a lot of potential, certainly. Obviously the greatest complaint is its lack of reliability, I for one have been frustrated far too many times seeing a couple unlucky misses and all the sudden my 5 stacks have dropped to 3 and then to 1 and I gotta go all the way back up again. Here's the questions of SoV: Does anyone know the approximate proc rate for SoV? Is there some way that you can refresh all the procs on a target at once (as judging it was supposed to do before live BC)? Other than perhaps Crusader Strike. And is there some way to improve odds of it stacking and sticking other than tossing my beloved CB?

2) I've noticed that since I've picked up Imp JotC, the debuff doesn't refresh on the mob anymore. It regularly expires, regardless of how many times I hit the target during the duration. Has anyone else observed something similar? Or know of it?

Thank you for your assistance.
-Anaro, Chaos Deified
US-Lightbringer

(Haven't got a fancy tag yet)
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Postby Higan » Wed May 16, 2007 4:43 pm

Good news!

2.1 fixes the judgment refresh problem, I have had the same happen to me on other judgments on live. Very annoying.

As for Seal of Vengeance, news from the test grounds say that regular melee hits will refresh the duration of the dot and the +spell damage the seal receives has been increased. So needless to say its much better in the next patch.
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Postby jere » Wed May 16, 2007 5:09 pm

Higan wrote:Good news!
As for Seal of Vengeance, news from the test grounds say that regular melee hits will refresh the duration of the dot and the +spell damage the seal receives has been increased. So needless to say its much better in the next patch.


Regular melee hits do not refresh the duration of the DoT unless they are applying Holy Vengeance, with is still on a ppm chance.

The damage the DoT does has been increased though, but it was more of a bug fix than an increase. Currently, spell dmg is only applied to the first stack. In the pointer, it is applied to each stack.
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Postby Arcand » Wed May 16, 2007 5:12 pm

The current (live) functionality of SoV is, I believe, 20 procs per minute.

That means if you use a 3.00 speed weapon (20 attacks per minute) SoV will proc on every swing*. For any other speed, the proc chance is

100% x (weapon speed)/3.00

Here http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=38&start=0 is some number-crunching I did a while ago on SoV's performance at various weapon speeds, although I still think there's something wrong with how I interpreted the "drop chance" number and I haven't gotten around to revisiting it yet.

(I'd talk about how much I'd love to see a 'Seal Mastery' talent in the Prot tree that boosts Vengeance and Blood, but I dare not - there are too damn many talents in there already!)

* Edit: Sloppy language. At speed 3.00 SoV will proc on every hit, not every swing.
Last edited by Arcand on Thu May 17, 2007 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2 Seal Questions

Postby jere » Wed May 16, 2007 5:20 pm

Anaro wrote:1) Seal of Vengeance has a lot of potential, certainly. Obviously the greatest complaint is its lack of reliability, I for one have been frustrated far too many times seeing a couple unlucky misses and all the sudden my 5 stacks have dropped to 3 and then to 1 and I gotta go all the way back up again. Here's the questions of SoV: Does anyone know the approximate proc rate for SoV? Is there some way that you can refresh all the procs on a target at once (as judging it was supposed to do before live BC)? Other than perhaps Crusader Strike. And is there some way to improve odds of it stacking and sticking other than tossing my beloved CB?


Kalgan said 20 ppm in one of his posts.

As far as refreshing goes, there are only 2 ways to refresh the dot:
1. Your melee swing procs holy vengeance
2. Another paladin with SoV up procs holy vengeance.

Neither judgements nor Crusader Strike refresh it (CS only affects judgements and SoV is a seal).

Also, everytime you add another stack the 12 secs resets. Each stack does not have its own timer, but the timer is global for all stacks up. Once it runs out, the entire thing no matter how high it was (1,2,3,4, or 5) is gone.

What you are seeing isn't it dropping to 3 or 1, I am guessing you probably have Reckoning and what is happening is the entire stack is dropping off entirely and Reckoning is bringing back up to 3 really quickly

The only ways to ensure that SoV application improves:
1. Increase melee hit % so that you have a higher chance to apply it
2. Increase spell hit % to reduce the number of times it is resisted
3. Increase weapon skill
4. Have another paladin run SoV after you start. Only one set of stacks can be up at any given time. If more than one paladin is using SoV, they can all refresh the duration and add more stacks (up to 5). The dmg and threat from the stack will be attributed to the person who got the first Holy Vengeance proc for the stack set.
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Postby Elcure » Wed May 16, 2007 6:43 pm

4. Have another paladin run SoV after you start. Only one set of stacks can be up at any given time. If more than one paladin is using SoV, they can all refresh the duration and add more stacks (up to 5). The dmg and threat from the stack will be attributed to the person who got the first Holy Vengeance proc for the stack set.


Rolling SOV :) /wink to the fire mage in 1.X
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Postby Alixander » Thu May 17, 2007 8:43 am

Assuming it is a 20 PPM system for SoV, wouldn't one viable option be to get weapons that are slow enough you will get 20 connecting swings a minute? I say connecting because you can have a faster than 3.0 speed weapon if you predict potential misses. Let's say you have a 85% total chance to hit against mobs. This means you need to swing 23 or 24 times in a minute to connect 20 times. So a 2.6 speed weapon would be doable assuming that much chance to hit.

EDIT: Just had a thought... Jere's idea of having rolling SoV on a mob brings up a very valid question... who is attributed for the hate for SoV? Is it the person who put the first SoV up or the person who refreshed it last? If it's the former then couldn't a tank start off with SoV, put up a few procs of it, then swap to SoR, while another paladin does SoV and keeps it up generating little threat, lots of damage, and giving that damage to the tank.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 17, 2007 8:54 am

Alixander wrote:EDIT: Just had a thought... Jere's idea of having rolling SoV on a mob brings up a very valid question... who is attributed for the hate for SoV? Is it the person who put the first SoV up or the person who refreshed it last? If it's the former then couldn't a tank start off with SoV, put up a few procs of it, then swap to SoR, while another paladin does SoV and keeps it up generating little threat, lots of damage, and giving that damage to the tank.


Yes, that's the theory, the issue is actually testing it.
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Postby Alixander » Thu May 17, 2007 8:57 am

Sabindeus wrote:Yes, that's the theory, the issue is actually testing it.
Two tanks, both have Imp. RF, one goes in and drops SoV and builds it up a few times, then removes it and continues to do white damage. Second tank goes in with SoV and refreshes it, does JoV, then does not judge again. Assuming threat is being attributed to the first person to put down SoV, the enemy will eventually turn back to the first person. If it's being attributed to the refresher it will stay on the refresher the entire time.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 17, 2007 10:40 am

Alixander wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Yes, that's the theory, the issue is actually testing it.
Two tanks, both have Imp. RF, one goes in and drops SoV and builds it up a few times, then removes it and continues to do white damage. Second tank goes in with SoV and refreshes it, does JoV, then does not judge again. Assuming threat is being attributed to the first person to put down SoV, the enemy will eventually turn back to the first person. If it's being attributed to the refresher it will stay on the refresher the entire time.


Well yes, that would be a good test to see if the mechanic itself works. I meant an actual test in a raid to see if it's a viable strategy though.
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Postby Alixander » Thu May 17, 2007 10:52 am

Sabindeus wrote:I meant an actual test in a raid to see if it's a viable strategy though.
I think I'm misunderstanding you. If it was a viable strategy, why would it work in one place and not another. Or do you mean the only place to test it would be a raid, and it would be neigh impossible to test it there with all the other various factors at play (8 or 23 other people doing their thing)?
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 17, 2007 11:08 am

Alixander wrote:Assuming it is a 20 PPM system for SoV, wouldn't one viable option be to get weapons that are slow enough you will get 20 connecting swings a minute? I say connecting because you can have a faster than 3.0 speed weapon if you predict potential misses. Let's say you have a 85% total chance to hit against mobs. This means you need to swing 23 or 24 times in a minute to connect 20 times. So a 2.6 speed weapon would be doable assuming that much chance to hit.


Well not really, you only have 12 seconds to get a proc or you lose the stack. The benefit of a 3.0 speed weapon is the proc rate becomes 100%, so as long as you don't miss on 4 swings and don't get a resist the stack will stay up. As you go to a faster weapon, it becomes harder to keep the stack up because yet another luck factor is added in.
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Postby jere » Thu May 17, 2007 1:42 pm

If it helps I have tested multiple paladin SoV attacks before. I don't know for sure how the threat is attributed but I did find that:

1. If I started the first proc, all the Holy Vengeance ticks showed up in my combat log for me and it showed on scrolling combat text.

2. If I let the other paladin start it but I added stacks to it, then I never saw a single holy vengeance tick, even though my combat log said I applied holy vengeance to the mob.

So it looks like at least the dmg is attributed to the one who starts the stacks, and I assume the threat with it.

However, both of us could Judge SoV for our own dmg/threat regardless.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu May 17, 2007 1:53 pm

Alixander wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I meant an actual test in a raid to see if it's a viable strategy though.
I think I'm misunderstanding you. If it was a viable strategy, why would it work in one place and not another. Or do you mean the only place to test it would be a raid, and it would be neigh impossible to test it there with all the other various factors at play (8 or 23 other people doing their thing)?


All I meant was that I haven't seen anyone actually try having a secondary paladin maintain a Vengeance stack that belongs to the MT Paladin, who is ostensibly using some other seal (Righteousness). I would want to see if it could work for uber wtf threat.
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Postby Arcand » Thu May 17, 2007 2:00 pm

jere wrote:1. If I started the first proc, all the Holy Vengeance ticks showed up in my combat log for me and it showed on scrolling combat text.

2. If I let the other paladin start it but I added stacks to it, then I never saw a single holy vengeance tick, even though my combat log said I applied holy vengeance to the mob.


This was confirmed by a blue post back when SoV was first introduced, and no, I'm pretty sure I can't find it. They said that whoever applies the first Holy Vengeance DoT owns the stack for as long as it exists, so the combat log should attribute the ticks to them as well as all the threat.

I don't remember the blue saying anything about JoV, but I would assume that each paladin who judges would accrue their own threat, no matter who the HV stack belongs to. (Warriors would be using similar mechanics with a couple warriors Devastating off the same Sunder Armor stack; you could check their forum and see if they have hard data.)
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