Prot paladin gameplay... not fun?

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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:44 am

Yeah this has been said already but...

If you don't find it fun, don't do it. We DO find it fun. Having a button to hit every GCD is not equivalent to engaging gameplay.
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Postby Lore » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:46 am

Kaen wrote:Lore, you're an experience raid tank. Would you change anything about paladin tanking if you had the power to? Would you place some abilities on separate cooldowns or even put some abilities in a different school other than holy (for instance, physical)? What about threat abilities? Would you add something, that for instance, you could press every 6 seconds, akin to shield slam, that boosted your tps significantly, and you just could wait for that 6 seconds to be up so you could use it again? What would you change? Or are you satisfied with the state of the raiding paladin tank?


I'm satisfied with how Paladin tanking works, though that doesn't mean there couldn't be improvements. I wouldn't mind another button to push, though I do enjoy the 3-4 seconds where I can toss out cleanses or whatever else. If I had my way and could change anything I wanted to, here's what I'd do:

#1: Make Holy Shield usable while Silenced.
#2: Move cooldown and duration of Consecration either to 7 seconds or 10 seconds, so it stops clashing with Holy Shield. Alternatively, increase duration to 10 seconds but leave cooldown at 8.
#3: Increase duration of Holy Shield by 1 second.

Those are basically my only nitpicks, and they're not a huge deal. Aside from Gruul, there are no bosses that can both silence and crush, so that's not a huge deal. The Consecration tweak would give a little bit more TPS, but my threat's fine. The Holy Shield duration is probably the biggest as a lag spike can mean death... but that's pretty true for everyone.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:55 am

Sabindeus wrote:Yeah this has been said already but...

If you don't find it fun, don't do it. We DO find it fun. Having a button to hit every GCD is not equivalent to engaging gameplay.
I like that as a dpser, at least. Double tanks means double pleasure for my warlock, and once it was the only way I'd make the people shut up about damned admage meters on trash(affliction, meh). They were starting to vent that i was being carried by the guild because "you're a warlock and not topping the damage meters". I decided to give ti a fuck it and press the tanks. No tnaked mob left undotted. It's pressing but it worked.
For tanking though, I like to have the open time to think on how to manipulate the battle. juggling seals, watching the scene as a whole and adjust it properly, finding that extra second to shoot a cleanse/blessing on someone that is in trouble...For me that made the difference as a tank, and i'm not even raiding yet.

Today my only worry as a tank(lame but real worry) is how can I make my companions NOT lazy, because dispensing CC 80% of the time, and being able to hastily aoe the hell out of instances might make them that lazy about their threat and cc =|



edit: I refuse to correct my spelling mistakes after they're posted.
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Postby Arcand » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:02 am

Kaen wrote:What are you guys doing when you're tanking, in your mind? What is your thought process?


Watching my health, ready to stun/pot/LoH if things start to go sideways.

Watching the target's health and the visual/sound effects to help me decide if I can switch to the next kill target yet, or if this one's taking big hits and needs more threat.

Checking group mana - can I stun the last target and pull that pat, or is it time for a drink?

Pulling the mobs around in short semicircles, trying to get them all in front of me.

If I put another JoR on this target, will it be up again in time for starting the next?

How's my mana - should I let HS go down so I take a little more damage? Is the healer in a position to step it up if I do?

I rabidly hate tanking on my warriors. Just holding three bad guys, even with good focused damage, feels frenetic and like I'm constantly on the verge of losing control. The five or six warriors on this planet who can effectively tank a pull of four or five have my respect. Or they will if I ever meet them.
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Postby Belarkan » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:17 am

Kaen wrote:
Passionario wrote:"Amateurs think about tactics. Professionals think about logistics."


I want to respond directly to this. Because a couple of people in this thread equated "tactics" with the warrior tanking gameplay, I'm assuming this is what you're referring to. Are warrior tanks amateur because they have more buttons to press? Are paladin tanks "professionals" because they have fewer buttons to press? Related to my question in the above post, help me understand here, what is so strategic in paladin tanking? Be honest; I mean this with no malice whatsoever, but is that just an "excuse" to cover up embarrassment because of lack of things to actually think about or do while tanking as a paladin?


Well, if you intend to raid with your protection paladin, you have to dig a few numbers to ensure you stay crush immune (I can't remember how many time I banged my head against the wall for that). Warriors don't have to care about that (remember Kurgen asking for the crushing immunity percentage).

I wouldn't say it is about professionals and amateurs but definitively protection paladins are about geek if you want to go raiding seriously.
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Postby Whitewolf » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:37 am

I've had this same argument with one of my Warrior MT's in my guild...everyone seems to think tanking as a Paladin is much easier then it is. Sure, tanking a 5 man is easy - but that doesn't really make you a good tank. Since 2.3 came out, I've seen about 5-10 more Prot Paladins on the server. None of them seem to get the hint as to why you need spell damage, or why consecration needs to be dropped or HS needs to be up. Warriors don't need as much thought into how they tank, as where Paladins need to balance a lot of things while making sure your GCD's dont run into each other. All I gotta say is I sure wish Holy Shield has 2s less cooldown.

*SHrugs* to each there own.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:39 am

Kaen wrote:DISCLAIMER: I tried posting this on the WoW general chat forums, but most of the replies were something like: "nice ninja post of 'paladin tanking is OP and easy' and that is certainly NOT what I mean with this post. Please DO take it at face value, I mean exactly what it literally says and nothing more.


Kaen wrote:Be honest; I mean this with no malice whatsoever, but is that just an "excuse" to cover up embarrassment because of lack of things to actually think about or do while tanking as a paladin?


I dunno dude, that sounds pretty conflicting right there. If you want to be polite, try not making comments like that at all rather than prefacing them with a whole bunch of "no offense" and such.
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Postby Zhalseran » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:03 pm

The fact is warriors are essentially skill-based tanks whilst Paladins are... I guess you could say knowledge based. Any noob Paladin can slap on RF and drop a consecration, but there is so much more to it than that. Warriors are about using the right skills, Paladins are about setting everything up just right, juggling gear, etc.

Personally I never feel like I am sitting around doing nothing. Especially during fights like Prince. The only times I feel like I'm doing nothing is when I'm not tanking, or during gimmick fights like Netherspite, where I don't actually need to get aggro. While I can't claim to have a high level warrior to compare it with, I adore the way Paladins tank, and ejoy it very much =)
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:29 pm

You can sum up this thread very easily.

Origial Poster: I don't like the way my paladin plays.

Other Posters: I like the way my paladin plays.

Moral of the story: What is good for the gander isn't always good for the goose.

The end.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:38 pm

Hi Kaen from Mal'Ganis

I raided for two years as a holy priest; rolled a warrior alt, fell in love. I learned everything I know about warrior tanking from watching Scorned, who tanks for EJ nowadays.

I loved tanking on my warrior. Handling multi-mob pulls perfectly is a monster rush: being clever with taunts and conc blow to handle add 3&4, and mocking blow to handle #5 when I'm feeling really ballsy was stupid amounts of fun.

But it's also really exhausting, and it's hard to do anything else while you're also doing that. This is in the days before the mouseover-sunder-target macros, so it was even more exhausting.

I also had a macro
/cast shield slam
/cast revenge
/cast sunder
/cast shield block
/cast heroic strike

that would basically tank a single target for me. Or two if I threw in a tab every so often. I used to twobox my warrior and priest in all the old world 5 mans, MC and Onyxia. I'm good at multitasking.

But it's exhausting.

Tanking on a paladin leaves me a lot of time to do raidleader stuff, which I do enjoy more. I like controlling fights; I enjoy directing the flow of battle. I like chainpulling large mobs of angry things. The raid enjoys it when they can just go balls out DPS. Being on a paladin means that we can do things like that, and still have time to monitor the raid's mana levels and whatnot.

Handling meltdowns is a hell of a lot easier on tankadins. Last night on the patrolling packs in Tidewalker's room we acidentally got two packs on the pull. I popped wings and dropped cons, and we just handled it. I can't do stuff like that on my warrior; the class mechanics just make that untenable.

An aspiring tankadin was picking my brain the other day and I told him 75% of pally tanking is figuring out what to wear to the dance. He responded that he wanted to build a single set of gear to wear all the time, like the dude in GCR. I wished him luck. When you outgear almost all the content in the game maybe a single set would work. Not so much if you're still in blues, brother.

I've seen wonderful warrior tanks in action and a lot of really, really bad warrior tanks (wtf opening with taunt? what? really?). I haven't run with that many prot pallys, but I've seen some good and some pretty horrible ones.

Good players are a joy to play with regardless of what class they play -- the majority of the folks I run with consistently all have several 70s, any of which they are really, really, really good at.

As long as you're getting what you want out of the game, who cares?

As far as changes to the class -- Lore pretty much nailed the most irritating things. I personally would kill puppies for a shield-bash type spell interrupt. And it would be nice to have a HS-queueable type attack ... but most of us do ok on threat without it.
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Re: Prot paladin gameplay... not fun?

Postby Rainge » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:41 pm

Kaen wrote:Simply put, there is not enough button pressing, and not even skill juggling. I am not saying that just mashing buttons as fast as you can is good gameplay, but I am saying that seal, judge, consecrate, holy shield.... wait... wait... wait... is not very fun. I find myself sitting there with nothing to do probably half the time.


I actually find the few seconds between rotations to be quite liberating vs. tanking with my warrior. Warrior tanking tends to give me tunnel vision. As a paladin, I find myself having far more situational awareness than the other tanks. I seldom "wait" in those seconds - I'm usually watching timers, threat meters, raid health, making decisions, and seeing where everyone else is at.

When I'm not the raid leader, it gets kinda boring - but I still make myself as useful as possible.

To each their own - yes, I'd like a few more tricks up my sleeve, but I'd prefer them to be optional, so I can continue being the tank that knows more about what's going on than anyone else.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:57 pm

So I'm cutting most of your post down to the meat of your argument:

Kaen wrote:Shield slam
Revenge
devastate
heroic strike
shield block


These seem to be your "basic" threat rotation.

What do you use as your "basic" threat rotation as a paladin?

I would say that mine under ideal conditions is:
Holy Shield
SoR or SoV
JoR or JoV
Consecrate
*Max rank

Warrior's 5 to Paladin's 4


Kaen wrote:thunderclap
intervene
intercept


The above three seem to be your situational abilities.


Here are mine:

JoCrusader
JoWisdom
JoLight

SoWisdom

HoWrath
HoJudgement

BoProtection
BoFreedom
BoSacrifice

Cleanse
Avengers Shield
Avenging Wrath
Excorcism
Holy Wrath

Aura switches

FoLight (*frighteningly enough)

*Rank 1 Holy Shield
*Rank 1 Consecrate
*Rank 4 Consecrate

Warrior's 3 to a Paladin's 20


Now, will I use all of those every fight?
Hell no.

But there are a lot of fights where I'm using several of those, especially lately I'm doing more and more of the above then when I actually get to sit in the 4 spell rotation.

Most fights I juggle Judgements, Seals and Downranking along with HoW in the last 20% of the target.

Remember:
Any time a situational Blessing is thrown out, it must be replaced after the duration.

With all of this in mind can you start to see why there must be 3 to 4 sec of "dead time"? With GCDs in mind of course.


Kaen wrote:In short, there is practically no downtime as a warrior -- it's very high maintenance, and very engaging. Situational awareness, resource management, all those things that paladins do are still very much a part of what a warrior does... but again, there's very little downtime; aka it's fun because of the precision it requires to do very well.



Situational Awareness is a much higher Priority for a Paladin.
We have much more effect over the battleground than a Warrior does.

Now let's think about Consumables.
Paladins have more Pots options during a fight.
Paladins have more Food options Pre-fight.
Paladins have more Flask options Pre-fight.
Paladins have more Elixir options Pre-fight.
Paladins have more Weapon Buff options Pre-fight.*

*though mostly just Wizard oil


All of these combined is where most people's "Tactical vs Stratagic" opinion comes into play.

I hope this has helped shed some light on the subject for you.

PS: I wouldn't mind another option or two for my standard rotation, but I'm crazy.
Last edited by Dragonzbane on Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Lore » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:58 pm

I don't think Paladins tanking being easier than Warrior tanking necessarily equates to Paladin tanks being easier to play than Warrior tanks. Warriors have to ignore a lot of things going on around them while they have their nose deep in their cooldowns. A good Warrior can do most of that as second nature, but that really just opens them up to watching their health so they can blow other cooldowns - something a good Paladin tank takes for granted.

Obviously if you were to push everything to where both players were operating at their max potential, knowing everything they need to know at any given moment, etc, then yes the Paladin would be a good deal easier to play. However a Warrior would have to be an absolute machine to get there, so I think most of the time the Paladin is just paying attention to other things while the Warrior has his face in his cooldowns.

Simply put, because Paladin tanking is easier than Warrior tanking, we can use that to our advantage to have a better sense of what's going on - and act on it - than a Warrior can. If you were to ask a Warrior tank how much mana his healers have in the middle of a fight he'd probably tell you he has more important things to pay attention to (and he does). Or more likely he'd probably just ignore you and keep hitting his buttons. Meanwhile I'm able to take a loot at my healer mana and pop trinkets etc to give them a breather if they need it.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:20 pm

Lore wrote:Meanwhile I'm able to take a loot at my healer mana and pop trinkets etc to give them a breather if they need it.


The new version of partytargets has a castbar under the party portraits so you can see what people are casting; I believe xPearl has this ability for the entire raid.

I like being able to see what the party is casting; it allows me to react to them and change what I'm doing to mesh with what they're doing. Low on health but the healer is about to finish a big heal? OK, I can save my pot timer this time around. Heal nowhere close to being done? Oh shit time to HoJ that Arcane Protector.
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Postby Noradin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:01 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:I like being able to see what the party is casting; it allows me to react to them and change what I'm doing to mesh with what they're doing. Low on health but the healer is about to finish a big heal? OK, I can save my pot timer this time around. Heal nowhere close to being done? Oh shit time to HoJ that Arcane Protector.


ag_unitframes has castbars and combattext for each raidmember :)
I like to see if my raidmembers lack health because of missing heal or because of recently received damage. If they get some dispensable periodical AoE-damage or some mayor hits.
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