Prot paladin gameplay... not fun?

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Postby Nicos » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:01 am

It's the managing of the cooldowns that is important. Holy Shield needs to be up all the time, so that means you need to balance exactly when you judge/reseal, consecrate or any other ability...

You also need to know how much you can pull... pull too little and you'll go out of mana. Pull too much and your healers wont keep up.

I think warrior tanking is boring, personally. Span Sunder + Devastate = win.

What do you think about while you're just mindlessly clicking buttons?
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Postby Warrender » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:31 am

Snake-Aes wrote:To each it's own. You just likes the warrior gameplay more than the paladin gameplay =)


Different strokes for different folks.

It's why my 70 Prot Paladin has epics and is my main and my 70 Prot Warrior has blues/greens and is only used to check the Horde AH.
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Postby Lore » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:42 am

I played a Prot Warrior for the large portion of my time in WoW pre-BC. I tried tanking on him again after playing my Paladin for a while; I can't do it. I like being able to look around me and know what's going on while tanking things.

When all is said and done, and you're standing in front of something big and angry, Paladin tanking is leaps and bounds easier than Warrior tanking. It opens up my thought process to let me look at something else. I like that.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:02 am

I like the laid back pace, it gets hairy and AI can focus on other things like errant pats picked up by dumb players. I can look for better positioning, I can even consider switching to mana regen if my threat lead is huge enough.

We don't require button mashing and I like it.

I am not sure there is anyway for us to convince you otherwise. Plus as a raid leader it allows me to focus on making sure the raid is doing what needs to be done and still tank effectively.

Also hi Kaen, Mal'ganis prot paladin in <Taurential Reign>.
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Postby Noradin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:33 am

Boudi wrote:
Noradin wrote:actions of the mob tanked don't matter at all
errhhmm....huh?

as far as i know the abillities of a mob heavely depends on how well we're able to tank something.

As example: When we fight spellcasters Holy Shield is near useless(as in: only usefull when the mob cannot cast his spells and switches to a melee attack).


Thats not "reactive" at all, because you can decide these things before even pulling the mob. Reactive abilities are immediate responses to actions of someone else.

Our abilites are preactive, passive or active at best.
(You need to cast BoS before the stun, you have to cast HS before the mob hits you and passive damage is dealt on blocks. Seal activation ist active, their proc passive, Judgements are active ...)
Only Taunt, Dispell and GS-Dispell can be used as reactive abilities, but opportunities to use them are rare.
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Postby Kaen » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:50 am

Nicos wrote:
I think warrior tanking is boring, personally. Span Sunder + Devastate = win.


You really have to be joking, or have almost no experience tanking as a warrior.

Shield slam receives priority above all else. If Revenge is up, it takes second priority in almost all cases. If either of them are unavailable/on cooldown, devastate should be used to apply a sunder. In a near-infinite rage situation, I try to keep up heroic strike on its independent cooldown at every interval possible to maximize my threat, but devastating on every GCD normally takes priority if you're not generating enough rage to handle burning a heroic strike. On bosses that crush, shield block is used, as often as possible, probably receiving priority even over shield slam. On multiple mobs, I try to put up thunderclap as often as is feasible, but sometimes the situation just calls for tab-devastates, shield slamming the primary target when its up, or maybe shield slamming him and using all of your available revenges on a secondary target. In special situations, you're going to need to quickly intervene someone who has gained aggro (coilfang elites on Vashj come to mind), or intercept a target immediately (picking up A'lar after a flame quill comes to mind).

There is a ton to think about, at all times, a lot to control, and to keep under control. If you think it's just mashing devastate = win, grats on your 400tps and I hope your guild downs Attumen soon.

In short, there is practically no downtime as a warrior -- it's very high maintenance, and very engaging. Situational awareness, resource management, all those things that paladins do are still very much a part of what a warrior does... but again, there's very little downtime; aka it's fun because of the precision it requires to do very well.
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Postby Nemi » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:54 am

I actually send tells to our warrior tank ask him how his fight is going i usually get replys of 1111111111111111111111124234524135r15.
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Postby Kaen » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:00 am

Vanifae wrote:I like the laid back pace, it gets hairy and AI can focus on other things like errant pats picked up by dumb players. I can look for better positioning, I can even consider switching to mana regen if my threat lead is huge enough.

We don't require button mashing and I like it.

I am not sure there is anyway for us to convince you otherwise. Plus as a raid leader it allows me to focus on making sure the raid is doing what needs to be done and still tank effectively.

Also hi Kaen, Mal'ganis prot paladin in <Taurential Reign>.


The horde on Mal'Ganis seems much more open to protection paladins than the alliance side. That's pretty awesome, rock on. I wish things were like that for me back in January when I was fighting tooth and nail to gain acceptance in my guild as a paladin tank . :(

Soooo---

It seems the main strength, as far as gameplay is concerned, of being a protection paladin, is that it frees up mental space so you can lead raids better. I definitely can relate to that.

Lore, you're an experience raid tank. Would you change anything about paladin tanking if you had the power to? Would you place some abilities on separate cooldowns or even put some abilities in a different school other than holy (for instance, physical)? What about threat abilities? Would you add something, that for instance, you could press every 6 seconds, akin to shield slam, that boosted your tps significantly, and you just could wait for that 6 seconds to be up so you could use it again? What would you change? Or are you satisfied with the state of the raiding paladin tank?
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Postby Ocin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:09 am

Kaen wrote:Help me understand. How is waiting through long cooldowns and having nothing to do after putting up HS, seal,judge,seal, with a taunt now and then "strategic?"

What are you guys doing when you're tanking, in your mind? What is your thought process?


what is going through my mind is how i'm going to manage to put out the most threat balanced against my cooldowns and pots. what do i have to do during different phases of a raid boss fight and what should i do to conserve mana or burn mana and go balls out for burst threat. what seal am i going to use in the beginning of a fight -- what seal should i switch to half-way through the fight. how am i going to be best positioned for a second boss or phase. what i am i going to do to make up for dpsers that crit when i only have one taunt. how long do i wait to consecrate on trash so i don't have 6 high level mobs on me in a 2-tank pull.

i dunno...kara and ZA keep me on my toes. i barely have time to speak on vent when it gets hairy.
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Postby Alchameth » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am

Nemi wrote:I actually send tells to our warrior tank ask him how his fight is going i usually get replys of 1111111111111111111111124234524135r15.


LOL....

Lastnight I free'd the princess in Arati HL, now I know she used to be harder, but still a level 44 E that summons more and more adds at a time the longer the fight goes on.

I helped a 47 mage and rogue do the fight before I was ready to finish that part myself and when I got back after getting the tome to free her no one was around to help, so at level 40 and how easy she was with the mage and rogue I decided to take her myself, I am after all a prot pally... WE CAN DO ANYTHING (mentality (tm))!

and after about 7 minutes of solid fighting, 4 mana pots down, LoH burnt and me starting to worry if I had made a mistake, I finally droped her.

Nope, no skill there, no timing when I would burn some mana on Cons instead of healing, gauge if there were enough elementals out to justify a Cons or if I should just let them beat on me until they die, no balancing Ret or Light depending on the current situation, no deciding on HS or heals.

I didn't know what to expect after they lowered her level, specially after how easy it was when I helped the other 2 out, I was wrong I probably wouldn't have tried if I had known... but I did it, AND I lived AND did something I doubt any other class could have in the time it took me to do it. and... IT WAS A BLAST!

I came back to this game after a few years away, I used to play a Shaman, I like the Pally. I like that I can go grind away levels without having to deal with other people, I like charging through SM or whatever a friend pulls me into and clearing rooms at once in stead of 2-3 pulls per room. I like the pally better then anything I've played in here, it suits me and there is always something going on.

But as others have said, different strokes for different folks! Enjoy.
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Postby Nicos » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:18 am

Kaen wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I think warrior tanking is boring, personally. Span Sunder + Devastate = win.


You really have to be joking, or have almost no experience tanking as a warrior.



Yes. That would be joking. I do find it boring, but that's because I hate the rage bar. I like my blue rage bar better.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:23 am

Kaen wrote:Lore, you're an experience raid tank. Would you change anything about paladin tanking if you had the power to? Would you place some abilities on separate cooldowns or even put some abilities in a different school other than holy (for instance, physical)? What about threat abilities? Would you add something, that for instance, you could press every 6 seconds, akin to shield slam, that boosted your tps significantly, and you just could wait for that 6 seconds to be up so you could use it again? What would you change? Or are you satisfied with the state of the raiding paladin tank?

Been tanking since late January and early February; my thoughts on some of this are as follows:

First off changing any ability to something other then holy would call for a change to Righteous Fury or most paladins would not use it, unless it had some innate threat bonus to it. Considering how weak our physical damage is, I don't consider this a good usage of our abilities. Now an ability that debuffs the mob would be nice, some kind of Holy Flash that perhaps increases miss chance, would be a nice and thematic addition to our abilities. (I stole the Flash ability from FF XI)

Of course that may just add bloat to our already bloated tree.

We don't have a shield slam we can do every six seconds but depending on talents we can judge pretty much every 8-10 seconds Global Cool Down not withstanding. Personally some way of integrating Shield Block Value into our threat build up would be nice, give us a nice side effect of building up shield block that allows us to enhance our gameplay/threat buildup. But don't doubt Judgment of Righteousness with Judgment of the Crusader up I can easily crit for 1100 holy damage, that is an obscene amount of threat.

Overall for myself I am satisfied with the variety of tools we have to build threat, help the raid, and maintain proper avoidance and mitigation.
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Postby Igrado » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:32 am

I think it boils down to different playstyles. I like what Dorvan said about Paladin tanking being more on the RTS side of things. I never realized it until recently, but I spend (and enjoy spending) more time planning, gearing, and strategizing, than actually running from Heroic to Heroic tanking. I do come from an RTS background and I think that is why I enjoy my Tankadin so much.

Bottom line, they are different and that is a beautiful thing.
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Postby Warrender » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:39 am

Igrado wrote:Bottom line, they are different and that is a beautiful thing.


Aye. If they were the same, I doubt I would ever have specced Prot on my Paladin.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:40 am

Kaen wrote:Help me understand. How is waiting through long cooldowns and having nothing to do after putting up HS, seal,judge,seal, with a taunt now and then "strategic?"

What are you guys doing when you're tanking, in your mind? What is your thought process?


It's strategic because many of the most important decisions are made before the battle begins (gear, talents selection). It's stragtegic because I spend a lot more time looking at the broader battle and adjusting my own actions to make life easier for others rather than have everyone else revolve around the tanks (good Prot Warriors do this as well, but it fits the Prot Paladin playstyle much more naturally).

The awareness and reaction to the battle environment is also much more necessary for Tankadins as they are much more often dealing with adds, which need to be retrieved, moved, and tanked much more often than single bosses do (see fights like Morogrim and Al'ar). Also, like a few other Tankadins in this thread I've become more and more involved with leading raids: again, focusing on more strategic decisions of raid organization that interest me rather more than the tactical matters of button-pushing that I find simply a requirement to an end. I suppose that's also why I end up setting Pally buffs when I'm in the raid...it's another little mini-game that needs to be taken care of :P

It's not that the strategic playstyle is better than the tactical, it's simply a different approach. To someone who is very focused on controlling an individual character and making split second reactions to events via repeated skill selection problems, this probably isn't going to be that interesting. For those of us who enjoy this, Paladin tanking lghtens the load of split second decision making and allows us to focus our efforts on others to better accommodate and lead them.

In short, when I'm tanking I'm thinking "that shadow priest is standing outside my consecrate, I'd better adjust so they don't get slammed by murlocs...that enhance shammy just got BoP'ed by the pally that was giving him salv, I better make sure he gets a 10 min replacement right away...the next meteor lands in 5 seconds, time to get near the center of the room and start panning around looking for it..." Button presses are not on the top of my priority list, and I'm ok with that.
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