Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:20 am

Yes, we do know it's the right choice legally to shut down any sort of private server, whenever fan made or for profit.

What the whole topic is about though, is if in this case it was the right thing to do, or if instead they should have instead made an agreement with the owners to sell or rent them the license, since all they getting from this situation is another whole load of negative advertisement.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:37 am

Taikishi wrote:As for protecting their IP, copyrights and trademarks it's just the way things work. You can't use it without their permission - that's why they create things like licensing. The only exception is "fair use", which is defined in US law as the doctrine that brief excerpts of copyright material may, under certain circumstances, be quoted verbatim for purposes such as criticism, news reporting, teaching, and research, without the need for permission from or payment to the copyright holder. These private servers don't qualify under ANY of those stipulations.

Servers were in France so US law doesn't apply but let's not split hairs. No argument there that hosting private servers is unlawful and against copywright law.
Taikishi wrote:To use your own questions about "fans playing" and "people having fun", I don't know how familiar you are with Legend of the Five Rings but...

In September 2015, Alderac Entertainment Group and Fantasy Flight Games announced a sale of the IP of L5R to Fantasy Flight Games. As part of FFG's announcement, players were told that the L5R CCG cards that have been produced for the last twenty years would be completely incompatible with the L5R LCG they intend on producing. To further complicate the issue, AEG had already printed their next expansion - Evil Portents - and begun previews for the set. Knowing that players wouldn't purchase a set for a game that was now officially dead, and that sale of product would violate an IP they no longer own, Alderac had no choice but to give away the set for free--at Fantasy Flight's consent. On top of it, the L5R LCG produced by Fantasy Flight isn't set to release until August 2017. That's two years with no new product. Think a year without content is bad? Try two years.

If you don't know anything about card games, the production cycle is such that the set after Evil Portents (the Blackest Storm) was ready to go to printers when this sale happened, and Onyx Edition (the next base set) was wrapping up play test so that it could go to printers. There had been talks from AEG about the possibility of releasing the PDFs of these sets as text-only documents, given FFG wouldn't be using the cards for their new game, and doing so for free provided FFG didn't object. We learned this week that FFG squashed the idea as their right.

So even though no profit would be made, and the cards would be completely incompatible with the new game being produced, and it would be done for the fans' enjoyment, it isn't legally permitted. See a comparison here?

Dick move by vindicative bully in my opinion for players. There are two companies here so situation is different, as with Nostralius case there were no company go after profit. And I seriously doubt that AEG started to publish L5R with no intention of making profit and did so for next twenty years.
Taikishi wrote:TL;DR, it's Blizzard's property. You want to run these servers, go to them and get permission to do it. Pay them to license it. Anything else is a violation of their property rights.

No argument there again.
Taikishi wrote:And while we're at it, I take issue with you comparing defending your intellectual property to things like slavery and apartheid. Choose your words carefully. The unethical ones are the ones using stolen code to run a game without the owners' permission.

Those were laws back then and they were enforced back then. Wheter we like it or not, you could do ethicaly right thing and get punished for breaking the law. It was simply regarded by many how things had worked before and should continue to work in the future.(This is little simplistic as there were plenty of people that viewed slavery or apartheid as ethical and lawful. And there were people that viewed it unethical, but there was very little people that viewed it unlawful.) Simply stating that something is unlawful doesn't make it unethical or that lawful actions are always ethical and can't be critizied. In this current events I think Blizzard actions are unethical, vindicative and bully like actions but completely lawful.

"Protect their IP" gets thrown around alot, but it's action taken against fans maintaining server, running part of the product that Blizzard doesn't support and currently has no plans to support, that can't be used by any legaly means or any ways Blizzard provide, product that doesn't compete current retail product. I fail to see harm done to Blizzard, I fail to see profits lost and I fail to see damage done.
Taikishi wrote:As for protecting their IP, copyrights and trademarks it's just the way things work.

In past you could own house, why not human? Slavery had always been in there, from ancient Greek till 1772 when in Britan first steps were taken to abolish slavery, that finaly led 1948 UN declaration to abolish slavery. Slavery was, as you put it, how things worked.
There are few arguments that are as bad as "that's just how things work". We do not live in utopia where everything is rainbows and colorful butterflies, accepting things on grounds "that's how things work" is extremely stupid and dangerous view that prevents us fixing many issues from legal to social.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:48 am

I'd contest the assertion that it doesn't compete with Blizzard. How many people have time to play multiple MMOs?
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Taikishi » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:09 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_France - looks like they violated French copyright laws, too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_Treaty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... agreements - oh, look, both France and the US are part of an international copyright treaty.

http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2011/ ... e-fair-use

Based on those links alone, it doesn't matter that the servers were located in France. They were in violation of an international treaty. It doesn't matter if it was done as a non-profit endeavor, using someone else's intellectual property without their permission is a crime and risks it becoming "public domain". It's why we have patent, trademark and copyright laws - so that you can benefit from your creation for a set period of time, and then it becomes public domain once that time is up.

Also, Worldie, the impetus isn't on Blizzard to go to them to license the server. It's own the server owners to do so rather than use the code without permission.

Either way, the fact that you continue to equate defense of intellectual property - that is, something you created - to being as morally reprehensible as defending slavery tells me all I need to know.

I'm out.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:10 am

Taikishi wrote:and risks it becoming "public domain"

This is actual argument in your posts. Now, can you tell me can you lose parts from copyright or lose them partialy? IE lose copyrights to vanilla/tbc while retaining rest if not actively shutting down servers? How often is required?
Taikishi wrote:Either way, the fact that you continue to equate defense of intellectual property - that is, something you created - to being as morally reprehensible as defending slavery tells me all I need to know.

I'm out.

Oh, you left. Then it's too late to tell you that you might read again what I have posted. And then re-read it few times after that. You are putting words in my mouth and they taste like spiders. I hate spiders. They run circles in my belly.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Nooska » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:55 am

If you don't defend your IP from people that are not making a profit, anyone making a a profit can argue that you gave up the exclusivity of your IP, and make profit off it.
In this case iy would be not only the game, World of Warcraft, but the actual warcraft IP as well.

The way around that if it was wanted, would be to license Non-Profit servers, but thats another legal minefield if you want to do it broadly, and also needs some sort of accounting to make sure its non profit. (Nota Bene, many jurisdictions would consider it "for profit" if the license holder earned anything from it, even if 'only' a salary adequate to the work thats used for it - or if anyone is payed to maintain it, even if the total is zero sum)

TL;DR
If its not defended vigourusly, the entire warcraft IP could be up for grabs, not just the game.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:22 am

Nooska wrote:If you don't defend your IP from people that are not making a profit, anyone making a a profit can argue that you gave up the exclusivity of your IP, and make profit off it.
In this case iy would be not only the game, World of Warcraft, but the actual warcraft IP as well.

Well, put it mildly, that's pretty damn fucked up.
Nooska wrote:The way around that if it was wanted, would be to license Non-Profit servers, but thats another legal minefield if you want to do it broadly, and also needs some sort of accounting to make sure its non profit. (Nota Bene, many jurisdictions would consider it "for profit" if the license holder earned anything from it, even if 'only' a salary adequate to the work thats used for it - or if anyone is payed to maintain it, even if the total is zero sum)

This continues to be pretty darn fucked up. But in this case, does Nostralius system work? Community payed server upkeep directly to company running servers, not to license owners and all work was purely done on voluntary basis. But I get that Blizzard isn't keen on finding result out in long legal battle where result is 50/50 and stake is Warcraft IP.
Nooska wrote:TL;DR
If its not defended vigourusly, the entire warcraft IP could be up for grabs, not just the game

This is has me scratching head pretty vigorously. Why Blizzard doesn't state this to be reason and chooses to be completely silent about this issue? Is there some kind of Fight Club law about copyrights?
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:59 am

Dion wrote:Why Blizzard doesn't state this to be reason and chooses to be completely silent about this issue? Is there some kind of Fight Club law about copyrights?

I think the reason for the silence is that it's a lose/lose situation.
The entire community sees this move as bully and bad (no matter whenever it's lawfully correct or not).
I'm quite sure that literally anything Blizzard would say about it would be used against them by the community. Might as well not say anything.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby halabar » Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:38 pm

Dion wrote:
Nooska wrote:If you don't defend your IP from people that are not making a profit, anyone making a a profit can argue that you gave up the exclusivity of your IP, and make profit off it.
In this case iy would be not only the game, World of Warcraft, but the actual warcraft IP as well.

Well, put it mildly, that's pretty damn fucked up.


This happens with all sorts of stuff. How often do you use 'Xerox' when you mean photocopy? Companies have to defend their brands/IP or they risk loosing them in court.

Of course, there may be other reasons.. has anyone seen the court action that forced the shutdown? I haven't seen anyone reference it.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:46 pm

So the petition reached 150k signatures but that's not the really relevant part. Relevant is that Mark Kern, the lead designer of Vanilla WOW threw his support behind it and the idea of legacy servers, promising that if it reaches 200k he will give it to Morhaime personally.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Era » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:16 pm

Io.Draco wrote:So the petition reached 150k signatures but that's not the really relevant part. Relevant is that Mark Kern, the lead designer of Vanilla WOW threw his support behind it and the idea of legacy servers, promising that if it reaches 200k he will give it to Morhaime personally.


Inb4 they sanction vanilla servers, get a team on it, the team starts making content, and the vanilla servers get more subscribers than then current content servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby halabar » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:14 pm

Ever get the feeling that WoW is on that motorcycle half way over the shark tank?
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:23 pm

To be fair... it was jet skis... not a motorcycle.

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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:59 am

Literally everything I've heard about vanilla WoW has led me to believe it was a pretty terrible game back then.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:32 am

Vanilla (as someone who played it and raided endgame then) WAS awful.

Anyone thinking it was great is just having rose-tinted glasses.

What WoW-Vanilla had of great was that it was NEW and much more casual-friendly than korean MMOs that were the "thing" back then.


Boss mechanics for everything up to Cthun (except Nefarian, but not even) were extremely simple & got boring very fast. All the content was gated behind gear, in the sense that you needed full T2 to enter Naxx, at 2 pieces per boss in a 40 men raid and 50-60 people roster. Also only 1 spec viable per class, no exception, and even then there was a severe ranking. Oh did I mention hots not stacking, meaning only 1 resto druid healer while other restos were just innervate bots for priests?
Farming 4 flasks per raid (if you were lucky)? 30+ herbs per flask + lotuses that costed a ton, meaning you'd spend 4-500g in flasks per raid night (did I mention you could only craft flasks deep in Scholo or in BWL?) and back then you were lucky if you could earn 1-200g per day.

Did I mention no flight?

Wonderful indeed. No.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:55 pm

I get what you're saying Worldie and I could apply many of the same arguments you used against Vanilla to slam, and damned rightly so, TBC. Anyone remember farming for months for nature resist, frost resist. Anyone remember the NETHERWING EGGS for that shitty netherdrake or bosses like Shake of Akama or Supremus? ( Should I even mention Lurker bellow? )

Let's not ignore the narrow minded idiocy when it came to Paladin tanks and what kind of herculean effort it took those of us who did manage to tank shit like Illidan or Brutallus to convince our guilds that we could do it, or hell were even optimal for it...or let's not ignore that Brutallus and Illidan had crap mechanics to actually deal with as tanks.

The reality is a legacy server is probably not going to appeal to a lot of the raiders who finished everything or mostly everything, but how many people even got to M'uru in Sunwell? How many even got to Nefarian in BWL? There's a lot of people. I wouldn't play a BC legacy server I would however play the fuck out of Vanilla, even though I played Vanilla for 8 months but I didn't really accomplish much raiding wise and the convenience argument of farming and the lack of flying means jack compared to having a better community and current wow player mentality is a disease that I never want to touch again whereas pre-Wrath mentality had people with more patience and less "git gud" /ragequit at the first mistake with everyone comparing their damned logs.

I'd take a whole raid night of BT till RoS and Hyjal before Archimonde any day over any modern raid for all their mechanics and refinements, because community matters most and in the absence of anything better pre-Wrath WOW will do. Only MMO that's ever come close to doing something better is Wildstar, and although it that great combat mechanics, bosses, dungeons and raids it sucked in every other respect.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:07 am

Thing is, all those people who "wish they played Vanilla" wouldnt even last to get to raid BWL. To raid BWL you needed several months of farming super-boring molten core + Fire Resist gear for tanks... I meant warriors, and everyone to be pidgeonholed in one spec per class. And to even imagine to raid MC you needed weeks if not months of significantly hard 5 men where AoE is forbidden and you had to CC 1+ mob per pack.

Let's be honest, how many of the current player base would stand 1 month of 1 button spam class in molten core while also watching KTM all time to not overaggro the sunders? (2 drops per boss for 40 raiders, don't forget), or 5 minutes of wanding on Onyxia to wait for aggro?
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:00 am

And to raid Karazhan you had to go through the toughest normal instances. To get into TK you had to defeat the toughest Heroic Dungeon on a bitch of a timer, yet people did it anyway and they loved their overall experience of BC.

People are made by their environments, you're not throwing them into raids, you're throwing them into a game where they'll have to level from scratch against mobs that will kill them if they pull more then 2-3 for most classes, let alone aoe spam hordes of mobs. Where a single ninja pull in the first five man instance will wipe you hard. In that situation they'll have a very different mentality then the "git gud" bros in modern WOW that are insufferable pricks.

You also assume people will play these raids as they were done initially..uhm no. They'll play them with threat meters and in full knowledge of what the bosses are going to do in terms of abilities.

Nostalrius had tens of thousands of active players at max level, that's something other MMO devs would kill to have and that's on a private sever where for all the talk about it being free draws less people then official servers because people prefer going official, even if it's not the same game.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:13 am

I never experienced Vanilla, I started in TBC. After Nostarlius became news, I got curious and decided to try private server. I'm astounded by quality of that private server, it feels very polished and very well maintained. And I'm currently having real blast, but I don't plan playing for year+ and I'm not intrested at all end game raiding or gearing process. I'm intrested in leveling, visiting zones that I have so strong memories and are untouched. Cata killed lot of things for me:Barrens, Darkshore, Deadmines, Scarlet monastery, Scholomance, Ashenvale quickly comes to my mind.

I have died leveling. Alot. I'm level 15 and my gear is still mostly white. Pulling two regular mobs is iffy at best, with "good" (meaning you have some green gear) gear it's possible, with mostly white it's diedie time, three mobs means death. Because gear sticks very long time, instance drops are meaningful and relevant for quite some time. Nelf wispform is most OP racial ingame in early levels because graveyard placements. Ding feels extremely satisfying even if it means only 1% more crit via talent tree. Eastern Kingdoms has whopping total of 16 flightpoints, one per area. Kalimdor has same amount. Mounts at level 40 and there are guides about how to get that money and where are best places to grind mobs for that money. Leveling feels pretty epic journey because it's hard.

There are many improvements made during years, but then there are things that might be good idea still. For example talent trees. I don't mean to that current talent system should scrapped, but I think spellbook passives aren't really exciting. It feels more rewarding to me spend point to increase 1% crit than check spellbook if you gained some passive this level. So maybe passive talent tree and since I like choise in choises while doing choises, you could have minor or mediocre choise. 1% more crit or 1%haste, or 5%.

Worldie, private server where I'm currently leveling is pretty good and what seems pretty solid raiding community. Raids are released one at the time, not all are available right away. Nostralius was about to release Naxx, private server I'm playing has AQ soon to released. I do agree with you though that if retail players were dumped on Vanilla raiding, most would quit. I know that I would. For me, it's thing of the past and I'm not intrested in it. But there are plenty of people that are in to that kind of raiding.

But let's not fool ourselves, for example Warriors were only real MT tanks in Vanilla. They were designed that way, and while paladins and druid could tank, warriors were always better choise.(paladin aoe tanking were better in vanilla too I think, but it was not fun to be trash tank in BC for most)Boomkin druids doing damage? Stop fooling around and heal as you were meant. King of healers? Priests.

And while TBC made many improvements to classes, there is no workaround how classes were designed. If there is warrior tank and paladin tank available to tank boss, warrior is better choise. That is by design. Raid missing shadow priest? Tough luck. Hate consumable grind? Hope you have lot's of gold.

Community seems tight, partially because that server uses common-custom made chat channel. GM:s (yes,private servers have those) enforce that discussion doesn't get too trade like with visible sanctions like muting player, removing from channel. I think bans are given from more rarely given but permabans from exploits is given straight away, no warnings. Tickets are answered fast. I have not seen complaints that there are no LFG, LFD or LFR and I have not seen complaints that it's hard to get group to run x,y or z.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:29 am

Dion wrote:It feels more rewarding to me spend point to increase 1% crit than check spellbook if you gained some passive this level. So maybe passive talent tree and since I like choise in choises while doing choises, you could have minor or mediocre choise. 1% more crit or 1%haste, or 5%.

The problem with those types of choices is that there will always be a right and a wrong choice. In the end, everyone will either look up online or just ask other players, then go the one route that gives the best result. The only real "choices" in TBC and WotLK talents were when you needed to reach a specific talent on the 3rd tier of the other spec's tree and could spend points freely among three or four talents that had nothing to do with your spec to get there. (Taking 2% crit and increased damage bonus on Judgment of the Crusader to get Pursuit of Justice, yay.)
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:12 pm

ut let's not fool ourselves, for example Warriors were only real MT tanks in Vanilla. They were designed that way, and while paladins and druid could tank, warriors were always better choise.(paladin aoe tanking were better in vanilla too I think, but it was not fun to be trash tank in BC for most)Boomkin druids doing damage? Stop fooling around and heal as you were meant. King of healers? Priests.


They were the only tanks in vanilla, anyone saying otherwise is being deluded. Paladins and druids lacked gear for it and king of healers was paladin being able to spam for the entire fight without running out of mana.

And while TBC made many improvements to classes, there is no workaround how classes were designed. If there is warrior tank and paladin tank available to tank boss, warrior is better choise.


Very

FUCKING

WRONG

I ain't talking hyperbolically here. I am talking hard facts. Taking into consideration the Zul'Aman patch Druids had the most HP and Armor but were crap against magical damage and had no block, so they'd be good against large big swings but not against fast bosses or anything require magical attacks. They also had Combat Rez and Inervate but those required them to not be tanking the boss. They also took crushing blows due to their lack of parry and block, not a factor in Sunwell but one almost everywhere else.

Paladins had the second most HP due to talents and could block/dodge/parry/miss every attack outside of Sunwell ( massive avoidance debuff there ) but had 4% physical resistance then warriors and around...10% or so less magical resist. We also had BoP, DS macros to avoid a pummeling blow when it counted.

Warriors had the lowest HP but highest damage reduction through talents and shield wall+ last stand ( massive cooldowns notwithstanding ). They were best against magical attacks and could spell reflect some attacks, which mattered for certain bosses. They also had intervene to soak a hit for another tank.

So who was the "best". That really, really depended on the fight and raid instance along with the role. Some fights a tank was the best as MT others he was best suited to handle adds.

Karazhan? Outside of Maiden of Virtue, due to aoe silence at short range, and Nightbane, fear ( though adds made a paladin useful anyway ), we could solo tank the vast majority of it and we had the best threat at that tier and by far away the best survivability versus the only boss where raw damage mitigation mattered and that was the Prince who would duel wield at a point and deal crushing blows on druids and warriors, dealing devastating damage to them. Meanwhile Paladins would just use holy shield and take minimal damage while doing massive threat.

Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon? High King was 90% in the pull and a joke. Gruul? Best combo was Paladin MT ( due avenger shield pickup after his nice stones ), druid OT due to the ability to generate good threat and handle those OT hits like a champ and warrior being support doing intervene on either MT or OT.

Magtheridon? Is that even a serious discussion? Warriors handling the toughest adds from the start then intervening the MT on Maggy, Druids doing combat rezzes and inervates while a paladin tanked the bosses and laughed his ass off as you could just use a divine shield when he collpased the roof and stunned everyone while doing a fuckload of damage while you took zero? Warriors could Last Stand/Shield Wall occasionally, we could DS every try.

SSC/TK? Greatly varied. We were superb on Al'Ar, Tidewalker for adds, best at tanking Leothras ( threat rest ), did well on Karathres as MTs ( though the real MT was on the Shaman who did a truckload of damage not on the boss). Great on Vashj for Blessing of Freedom on ourselves and Avenger Shield on her/adds and for Kael...well being able to completely mitigate a pyroblast in your face that wipes your raid otherwise is quite useful, but so is handling multiple weapons and phoenix adds.

Mount Hyjal. A terrible raid with mainly terrible bosses, we were considered by many a godsend though. We sucked with druids on Archimonde...but seriously who in their right state of mind wants to do Archimonde on progression anyway as a tank?

Black Temple? First two bosses were irrelevant, we were good on Akama, handled just fine on Gorefiend, best tank by far on Bloodboil ( Start as first tank, stack the debuff to ludicrous levels to the point your entire raid healers are yelling at you, reset stacks with Divine Shield, kill boss, be awesome due to the lower damage taken then anyone else on overall hits and do most threat ).

Reliquary? Warrior fight hands down ( and also seriously a boring as shit fight for tanks ), Mother? Stand there soaking hits with 2 other guys, dull as shit fight. Illidari Council? Go rogue as warriors are better for priest and paladin and druids are desperatly needed for any combat rez you can get.

Illidan, The big guy on the cover of the game? Paladin = Best tank. Take lower damage due to his fast but low damage hits, do most threat due to his dual wield nature+ demon, trivialize shear and pick him up very easily on phase change.

Sunwell? Sunwell was the era of the Druid Master Race and everyone was scrub compared to the bears. We...unlike warriors.... were needed for two fights but bears dominated Sunwell.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:02 pm

The problem really wasnt that we (or druids) "couldnt" tank things. It was convincing people that we could. The vanilla mentality was very strong, obviously increased by the fact that due to having inferior base stats (Paladins had lowest base HP in game, and don't forget we had the lowest HP scaling by far before ZulAman patch, and also most Warrior tanks were Tauren on Horde giving additional Health advantage) & need for more advanced gear in order to tank the same things in early tiers, and basically any guild (including mine, including myself in fact) was still very firm in believing that the entire game was designed for Warriors. It probably was to be honest, druids/palas just occasionally turned out to be better likely unintendedly.

But it was the same for every class to be honest. Non-healer druids, non-healer shamans, non-healer palas... The only "off-specs" that were quickly accepted by the community back then were DPS warriors (also known for their Improved Reincarnate ability to reset aggro) and mana batt.... I meant Shadow Priests.



Still, my point was, TBC was very likely designed with Vanilla classes/roles in mind. It was pretty obvious (expecially with certain mechanics like crushing blows, fears or mana burns in place).

I would be pretty entertained to watch a random current WoW player go into a Vanilla/Tbc realm and wanting to tank on a non-warrior. I really would.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:44 pm

It was a whole host of issues that put Paladins on a bad footing in Burning Crusade, but BC at launch was a damned buggy, glitchy, badly handled MESS on almost every level ( hey remember when we'd get mana back on overheals with Spiritual Attument and how that made it so a holy pala would max rank HOLY LIGHT heal and never run out of mana with a shadow priest? ).

The OP nature of holy palas, the established guilds already having tried and tested warrior main tanks and a number of issues that affected us ( like getting crushing blows when casting all our abilities due to the animation before it was fixed ) was what led to it. Also a lot of people on horde hated the idea of them having paladins. I personally met a lot more undead warrior tanks then tauren, but that's just me.

Initially for the first few months it was crap in general, not just for us ( anyone remember those two mobs in Underbog on HEROIC that would grow in size and one shot you? or Shattered Halls heroic before much needed fixes and balance changes? ). Still those few months created a perception for an entire expansion.

That perception forced us to work hard, like maxing out engineering for trinket/head piece in tier 4. Also the fact our tier pieces were completely garbage besides shoulders.

The only "off-specs" that were quickly accepted by the community back then were DPS warriors (also known for their Improved Reincarnate ability to reset aggro) and mana batt.... I meant Shadow Priests.


Enhance shamans were accepted reasonably well enough after a few months as were feral druids. First few months perhaps not, but then again not everyone is Nihilum ( seriously how many guilds even entered BT before they killed Illidan? Half a dozen at best? )

I would be pretty entertained to watch a random current WoW player go into a Vanilla/Tbc realm and wanting to tank on a non-warrior. I really would.


Vanilla would be retarded but for BC 2.3 WOW they'd handle perfectly fine. I personally wouldn't do it. I ran enough heroics in BC for a lifetime to get the ZA badge gear and I tanked the entirety of Tier 6 with that crap looking set for MONTHS until we started getting tier 6 tokens ( we had serious issues with drops ).

Also if I ever see Naj'Entus in my life again I'm skinning the bastard alive. He owes me those fucking boots I farmed for an ENTIRE DAMNED YEAR that never dropped until the very very last raid I did of BC a week before Wrath.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:05 pm

On another point, a fond memory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7Cu54dAoxU

Never ever give up. The words of Grand Marshal Linadillar, maintankadin in early BC.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:57 am

It reached 200k signatures.
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