Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

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Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:29 pm

So recently Blizzard decided to be rather massive douche bags and shut down the single largest Vanilla WOW private server, that from what I understand was NOT generating profits for the guys behind it ( how accurate that is I dunno though I did play on it ).

Server was pretty damned good and a faithful recreation of Vanilla WOW and it showed that Blizzard's argument for a long while now of legacy servers being non-popular was a load of complete horseshit. The server had 150.000 ACTIVE players and close to a million accounts.

https://www.change.org/p/michael-morhai ... =522873458

Generally I'd say that with a private server it's their right to do so, even though it's rather annoying they refuse to give legacy servers on official, but if it's true that the guys behind it were motivated by a love for Vanilla WOW and recreating that experience on a private server and doing it for no financial gain then I call Blizzard massive douche bags.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:33 pm

Sad thing, but if you think it, people playing on a private server are less people playing on retail and paying subs. So you can easily see why they forced the shutdown.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:35 pm

Worldie wrote:Sad thing, but if you think it, people playing on a private server are less people playing on retail and paying subs. So you can easily see why they forced the shutdown.


You can make the argument, you know who rejected it as an excuse for shutting down private servers though? Blizzard themselves.

They're just full of shit.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:00 am

It is against the ToS... so "douche" move or not...

ToS wrote:4. Responsibilities of End User.

B. You agree that you shall not, under any circumstances,

(iv) facilitate, create or maintain any unauthorized connection to the Game or the Service, including without limitation any connection to any unauthorized server that emulates, or attempts to emulate, the Service. All connections to the Game and/or the Service, whether created by the Game Client or by other tools and utilities, may only be made through methods and means expressly approved by Blizzard. Under no circumstances may you connect, or create tools that allow you or others to connect, to the Game's proprietary interface other than those expressly provided by Blizzard for public use.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Nooska » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:39 am

Lets not get into ToS - ToS and EULAs have no legal bearing in several european countries for instance (unless they are printed in full on the box you buy in the shop, so they are accessible before purchase, at the point of purchase).

That said, yes, it is against the TOS (which is a bit silly, since you are not using the blizzard service at that point)

(Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of pirate servers, regardless of expansion level, but yeah)
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:45 am

It's not ToS infringement that shutted down that private server, it's copyright infringement and that was basis for shutting server. If they then want to punish those players playing private server for breaking the ToS, they could but it's not really realistic at all.

Now, I'm not quite getting the why part from Blizzard. Hosters didn't make money from it, you really can't expect or think that all or majority of those players switch now from private to retail as many have already moved to another private server or move to different game altogether. (Private server Kronos has been mentioned a lot or they wait PlayTBC -server to be released on 14. April )

Blizzard actually seems pretty vindicative bully to many. If you want to play Vanilla or TBC only WoW there are no options other than private servers. Sometimes I want to get nostalgic and play good old SNES. Chrono Trigger is especially serious nostalgic trip for me. If my good old SNES broke or game itself, I have modern replacements. In WoW, there isn't that option. There isn't also way to pay Blizzard for my nostalgic trip in TBC or if I want to experience Vanilla Paladin leveling.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby halabar » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:00 am

Blizz should just license them. I can understand fully why they would never want to support them.

That said, especially ahead of their biggest moment, movie and an expac that will probably decide the fate of the game, yeah, they want eyes on the new content, not the old.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:00 am

halabar wrote:Blizz should just license them. I can understand fully why they would never want to support them.

That said, especially ahead of their biggest moment, movie and an expac that will probably decide the fate of the game, yeah, they want eyes on the new content, not the old.


In this case it's really backfiring. The guys who got the server seem like just a bunch of fans who wanted to provide to people that old experience for free while Blizzard comes off as a big asshole.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby halabar » Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:15 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
halabar wrote:Blizz should just license them. I can understand fully why they would never want to support them.

That said, especially ahead of their biggest moment, movie and an expac that will probably decide the fate of the game, yeah, they want eyes on the new content, not the old.


In this case it's really backfiring. The guys who got the server seem like just a bunch of fans who wanted to provide to people that old experience for free while Blizzard comes off as a big asshole.


Not disagreeing..
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:29 am

Well for what concerns WoW stuff in general, Blizzard's decisions lately have all being "backfiring" on them... I don't know what the leaders of the section are thinking.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby honorshammer » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:33 am

If it was a copywrite issue then Blizzard really had not choice but to enforce. If you don't enforce your copywrite, you risk losing it.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:35 am

Worldie wrote:Well for what concerns WoW stuff in general, Blizzard's decisions lately have all being "backfiring" on them... I don't know what the leaders of the section are thinking.


Honestly I just feel like Blizzard is slowly going down on every level.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Era » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:06 am

I still don't get why they don't just run a vanilla server of their own. People'd play it. They'd get their subs. Subs from vanilla server pays for vanilla upkeep/content/whatever. Drops and trickles add up. Maybe get some vetted volunteers. I don't see the downside.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:24 am

Era wrote:I still don't get why they don't just run a vanilla server of their own. People'd play it. They'd get their subs. Subs from vanilla server pays for vanilla upkeep/content/whatever. Drops and trickles add up. Maybe get some vetted volunteers. I don't see the downside.


Because the idiotic developers at Blizzard can't accept that maybe what they've done with the game in all those years, all that hard work is worth less then shit to millions of players. People like Metzen have their heads so up their ass they can't even hear you.

What I know from someone working at Blizzard is that old guard has surrounded by yes men and if you question them you're liable to get fired.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:39 am

That'd be a helluva lot of work, to build and maintain the code for a different version of the game. They'd need a whole different team (much smaller, sure, if they're never making new content) to run it.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:02 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:That'd be a helluva lot of work, to build and maintain the code for a different version of the game. They'd need a whole different team (much smaller, sure, if they're never making new content) to run it.


You say that as if Blizzard doesn't still have that code themselves. Come on now. If small teams on a private server can do it and they have to build everything from scratch Blizzard sure as hell can for minimal cost.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:07 pm

honorshammer wrote:If it was a copywrite issue then Blizzard really had not choice but to enforce. If you don't enforce your copywrite, you risk losing it.

That doesn't kinda make sense as there have been plenty of private servers before and left undisturbed (Blizzard has closed several private servers in USA for example though) and there still are plenty of private servers.

And honestly, I'm having hard time imagining scenario where Blizzard loses copyright to World of Warcraft. Can you even lose copyright partially, like lose copyright to Vanilla part and retain it in rest of WoW?

As Blizzard sued hosting company OVH, I'm more inclined to think that they close servers where legal process is simple enough. In this case, Nostralius servers were in France. PlayTBC decided move/open servers Russia. Now I have no idea how justice system works or doesn't work in Russia but Russia has reputation that it's justice system is extremely political. Passionario is person who could tell how likely Blizzard can shut down private server in Russia.
Io.Draco wrote:You say that as if Blizzard doesn't still have that code themselves. Come on now. If small teams on a private server can do it and they have to build everything from scratch Blizzard sure as hell can for minimal cost.

Nostralius team was 30 persons, not exactly small team and you would need to pay those people. If players need to pay subscrition, they expect service. 3days ticket que is okay in private server, in subscrition based game people scream bloody murder. They would also need to compete against private servers which are free.

If Blizzard released Vanilla server right now, do you think players would change from private servers to Blizzards server and start over from scratch? Especially if you would happen to have put effort to gearing and leveling. Let's also not fool ourselves with noble thoughts, free is free. Pirates generaly don't buy games that they "test" by playing pirated versions.

What I think they should do is private servers be as they are now, community driven but only if they make no profit and cannot hire anyone, volunteers only. Players playing would need to buy license to play, say 5-9$ and this would be one time cost. This would be requested in account creation to that server. Private servers violating or fail to enforce this would be in danger of closure.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby halabar » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:11 pm

Dion wrote:
honorshammer wrote:If it was a copywrite issue then Blizzard really had not choice but to enforce. If you don't enforce your copywrite, you risk losing it.

That doesn't kinda make sense as there have been plenty of private servers before and left undisturbed (Blizzard has closed several private servers in USA for example though) and there still are plenty of private servers.

And honestly, I'm having hard time imagining scenario where Blizzard loses copyright to World of Warcraft. Can you even lose copyright partially, like lose copyright to Vanilla part and retain it in rest of WoW?

As Blizzard sued hosting company OVH, I'm more inclined to think that they close servers where legal process is simple enough. In this case, Nostralius servers were in France. PlayTBC decided move/open servers Russia. Now I have no idea how justice system works or doesn't work in Russia but Russia has reputation that it's justice system is extremely political. Passionario is person who could tell how likely Blizzard can shut down private server in Russia.
Io.Draco wrote:You say that as if Blizzard doesn't still have that code themselves. Come on now. If small teams on a private server can do it and they have to build everything from scratch Blizzard sure as hell can for minimal cost.

Nostralius team was 30 persons, not exactly small team and you would need to pay those people. If players need to pay subscrition, they expect service. 3days ticket que is okay in private server, in subscrition based game people scream bloody murder. They would also need to compete against private servers which are free.

If Blizzard released Vanilla server right now, do you think players would change from private servers to Blizzards server and start over from scratch? Especially if you would happen to have put effort to gearing and leveling. Let's also not fool ourselves with noble thoughts, free is free. Pirates generaly don't buy games that they "test" by playing pirated versions.

What I think they should do is private servers be as they are now, community driven but only if they make no profit and cannot hire anyone, volunteers only. Players playing would need to buy license to play, say 5-9$ and this would be one time cost. This would be requested in account creation to that server. Private servers violating or fail to enforce this would be in danger of closure.


All they really need to do, if they wanted to, was license it to those guys. Solves the support issues, and gets more bucks.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:28 am

Licensing the private server would have been a huge advertising move too.

As I said, it's not something new that the WoW section of Blizzard takes debatably bad moves, it's been a trend going since a couple years. I just don't understand what the hell the leadership is thinking.

Related fact: I started playing MMOs on a private server of Lineage 2, until one day I decided that if the game on a unofficial was that cool, probably it was worth paying a sub to try the "real" servers.
I'm quite sure there's a lot of people around that started their MMO career in similar ways.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:04 am

"They didn't shut down other servers" isn't really a straightforward issue, depending on where those servers were hosted. They might shut down every one that they're able to, but struggle to actually find a way for those hosted in certain countries. People may have been working on a way to shut down this popular one for a very long time.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Taikishi » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:57 am

Whether you like the move or not, agree with the move or not, Blizzard had that server shut down for one simple reason:

to protect their IP and their copyrights and trademarks.

It's the same reason Games Workshop sued Chapterhouse Studios, got Aliexpress to stop selling Chinese recasts of their models, and started rebranding armies so that Imperial Guard is now Astra Militarum, Sisters are now Adepta Sororitas and their fantasy armies are now Orruks, Duradin, etc. It's also why Cryptozoic and WotC were in court for a while before settling.

Private servers don't qualify under fair use because Blizzard still owns the code, whether or not they may have it or access to it. I wouldn't be surprised if more follow suit in time.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby honorshammer » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:42 pm

Io.Draco wrote: You say that as if Blizzard doesn't still have that code themselves. Come on now. If small teams on a private server can do it and they have to build everything from scratch Blizzard sure as hell can for minimal cost.


Maybe, maybe not. It depends entirely on what their Source Control was like. In all liklihood, they've changed their Source Control system a couple of times over the long life of WoW. I guess the Nostralus guys had to have gotten it from somewhere though.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:31 am

KysenMurrin wrote:"They didn't shut down other servers" isn't really a straightforward issue, depending on where those servers were hosted. They might shut down every one that they're able to, but struggle to actually find a way for those hosted in certain countries. People may have been working on a way to shut down this popular one for a very long time.

Even if they closed all those servers, new ones would just pop up. And since Nostralius code is passed on, new ones are easier and easier to set up. If anything we have learned in this digital age, piracy has never been defeated with lawyers. What has actually made dent on piracy has been Steam, Netflix and Spotify to name few examples.

Taikishi wrote:to protect their IP and their copyrights and trademarks

Protect them from what? Fans playing them? People having fun? What profits Blizzard is losing?

Taikishi wrote:It's the same reason Games Workshop sued Chapterhouse Studios, got Aliexpress to stop selling Chinese recasts of their models, and started rebranding armies so that Imperial Guard is now Astra Militarum, Sisters are now Adepta Sororitas and their fantasy armies are now Orruks, Duradin, etc. It's also why Cryptozoic and WotC were in court for a while before settling.

No, it is not. I bet my that those companies SOLD and made PROFIT from GW:s IP and hard work. I have no love if somebody rips and makes profit with somebodys elses hard work, but I don't see this case here. Instead I see vindicating bully.

Let's be clear. I don't Blizzard has legaly done anything wrong, but I think that moraly Blizzard is being completely bully. Also, worth noting that many things have been completely legal like slavery, aparheid and police shooting unarmed individuals. Yet all of them have been critisied on moral grounds for being unethical.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Taikishi » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:38 am

Actually, the suit against Chapterhouse ended up being a huge loss for GW because the court ruled against them on quite a number of the claims they made against CHS and because they went so far as to try to claim Space Marines were their creation when the term originates in the 1930s.

As for protecting their IP, copyrights and trademarks it's just the way things work. You can't use it without their permission - that's why they create things like licensing. The only exception is "fair use", which is defined in US law as the doctrine that brief excerpts of copyright material may, under certain circumstances, be quoted verbatim for purposes such as criticism, news reporting, teaching, and research, without the need for permission from or payment to the copyright holder. These private servers don't qualify under ANY of those stipulations.

To use your own questions about "fans playing" and "people having fun", I don't know how familiar you are with Legend of the Five Rings but...

In September 2015, Alderac Entertainment Group and Fantasy Flight Games announced a sale of the IP of L5R to Fantasy Flight Games. As part of FFG's announcement, players were told that the L5R CCG cards that have been produced for the last twenty years would be completely incompatible with the L5R LCG they intend on producing. To further complicate the issue, AEG had already printed their next expansion - Evil Portents - and begun previews for the set. Knowing that players wouldn't purchase a set for a game that was now officially dead, and that sale of product would violate an IP they no longer own, Alderac had no choice but to give away the set for free--at Fantasy Flight's consent. On top of it, the L5R LCG produced by Fantasy Flight isn't set to release until August 2017. That's two years with no new product. Think a year without content is bad? Try two years.

If you don't know anything about card games, the production cycle is such that the set after Evil Portents (the Blackest Storm) was ready to go to printers when this sale happened, and Onyx Edition (the next base set) was wrapping up play test so that it could go to printers. There had been talks from AEG about the possibility of releasing the PDFs of these sets as text-only documents, given FFG wouldn't be using the cards for their new game, and doing so for free provided FFG didn't object. We learned this week that FFG squashed the idea as their right.

So even though no profit would be made, and the cards would be completely incompatible with the new game being produced, and it would be done for the fans' enjoyment, it isn't legally permitted. See a comparison here?

TL;DR, it's Blizzard's property. You want to run these servers, go to them and get permission to do it. Pay them to license it. Anything else is a violation of their property rights.

And while we're at it, I take issue with you comparing defending your intellectual property to things like slavery and apartheid. Choose your words carefully. The unethical ones are the ones using stolen code to run a game without the owners' permission.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby halabar » Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:17 pm

Taikishi wrote:;DR, it's Blizzard's property. You want to run these servers, go to them and get permission to do it. Pay them to license it. Anything else is a violation of their property rights.

And while we're at it, I take issue with you comparing defending your intellectual property to things like slavery and apartheid. Choose your words carefully. The unethical ones are the ones using stolen code to run a game without the owners' permission.


So much this. making that leap is pretty silly.

Also, if Blizz didn't attempt to protect it's IP, it can roll into the public domain. They HAVE to make the attempt to protect it.
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