GamerGate stuff

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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:48 am

I have a frustration. I am hesitant to post it here, because of the very nature of this forum, and the very nature of my frustration. If I missed a "thou shalt not post about X" thread, I apologize. I will remove the post.

GamerGate.

This "movement" makes me ashamed to be a gamer. It's a logical fallacy rolled into the shambling corpse of the bile and hatred of Official gaming forums, let loose upon the countryside of the internet. The claim, that it is about ethics in gaming journalism are weak and specious. And the movement is going to fail to produce any of the results that any of the people "in it" for ethics are trying to accomplish.

The problems are myriad, and real.

Doxxing women who disagree with the movement (but not doxxing guys who are just as critical) coupled with threats of rape & violence being the biggest.
Then, instead of doing something about it, it's "but they're not real gamergaters!" Right. Because no one is a "real whatever" when they go off reservation, and get "too crazy"

Then, there is the cozying up with the worst denizens of the internet. Mike Cernovich, has a long and lengthy life as a rape apologist, bully, and all types of things that the movement is "not about". But man, if he hadn't spent a good amount of time propped up as a bastion of shining light. Even after an RT by RT blow by blow expose of his tweet history showed that he was a pretty awful guy up to 10 days ago (in a now deleted tweet that bullied an obese man, but is still available in the RT storyfi).

And then, when this is pointed out? We're not judging his past!
Look. 10 days ago is not a past. That's a present. When he then tries to find a way to get into a fight with someone who disagrees with him (but it was for charity!), or goes after a blogger who has nothing to do with gaming, and guilt them into something, That's a PRESENT. That is happening now. He is not good for the movement.

Just last night, another woman was doxxed, and faced threats because she spoke up and said she didn't agree with the movement.

But the movement is about ethics in journalism. Not about bullying people. Or threatening people. No. It's not. I had for a brief moment in time thought that the movement was interesting, and that it had merit. And then the batshitcrazy started popping up more, and more, and more, and more. It's not about Zoe, or Brianna, or Anita, but when you go to the "GG HQ type sites", the most popular threads are far too often, about those topics.

I'm sorry. GamerGate as it is, is a blight on gaming. It makes gamers look like all of the stereotypical nerdy, basement dwelling, internet trolls, that people thought they were, and not the people that I have come to know through this forum, or through WoW, or through PoE, or through D3, or any of the other online games where I have met real people. Other people. Like me. With a wife, and kids, and lives, and careers.

I'm with Kluwe, and several others. If the movement wants "real results" concerning ethics in gaming journalism, it needs a new hashtag. It needs real leadership. It needs real organization, and it needs to get really real, and getting rid of the people who give it a bad name. Because as it is right now, it is a cesspool. And the drek that "isn't real GG'ers" is destroying the public perception of the "real GG'ers", which will cause the movement to fail, through alienating prospective allies, and turning a public that isn't interested in going down the rabbit hole to get to the bottom of the mess, against the very notion that "gamer" is nothing but a basement dwelling internet troll.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:03 am

Agree completely, Shoju.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:12 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Agree completely, Shoju.


I disagree with you both, but I won't force any more of my opinion unless requested to. Both PM and follow-up message is welcome.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:36 pm

Not knowing youre full position on this, I'll just speak generally on where I stand: Willingly associating onesself with the gamergate label is an indefensible stance. The label cannot be taken separate from the most noxious elements - those being the parts that are the most vocal, most visible, and the only parts that have shown they have tangible goals (those goals ranging from "driving people we disagree with out of gaming" to "driving women to suicide"). If anyone is actually concerned about ethics in journalism, talk about that, but don't attach yourself to the clusterfuck of hatred that is the gamergate "movement" (who have demonstrated a widescale lack of ethics themselves in any case).

By the way, the single absolute best article I've seen about gamergate is this:
http://www.clickhole.com/article/summar ... y-cha-1241
It completely skewers the whole range of gamergate arguments with just the truth and subtle sarcasm.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:09 pm

Allright, I'll give that a read and try and post something back, say, tomorrow same time at worst?
How's that sound?

My short quick thought is that you're getting smokescreened - there is quite a bit more to that consumer revolt than you seem to believe.
For an interesting example, https://www.christcenteredgamer.com/ has received praise from quite a bit of #GG, me included, for being an example of what a good structure for a review with a specific political agenda should be.

But don't sweat too much on it, I'll be sure to get back to you at worst tomorrow.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:16 pm

Rather long winded PM sent.

TLDR, or for those wanting a TLDR of my stance.

If you willfully saddle up to a group of people that condones doxxing, stalking, threats of rape, murder, and campus massacres, you are approving of that.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:34 pm

I think you've missed my point, Sagara. The only thing that matters is that gamergate is seen very widely - and rightly - as a source of harrassment and privacy violation, and yet people continue to choose to label themselves as part of it. If you disagree with that part of gamergate, you need to find a new label, because there's no way to remove that stain.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:40 pm

Yup. I've been mildly disappointed to find several people I otherwise respect consider themselves part of GG. Being involved at all demonstrates a frightening lack of critical thinking skills.

Ethics in game journalism my ass - if that's actually your goal, then you shouldn't be shacking up with this movement in the first place. Hamlet linked a great deadspin article today that does a good job of explaining why:

http://t.co/IDDDgq8Rgq

In short, if you actually want ethics in journalism, you shouldn't be targeting ZQ, Anita, BWu, or any of the other popular GG targets in the first place.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:47 pm

I try to stay on the fringes of all that, but the guilty by association arguments really don't fly with me. To me, its like saying Catholicism needs a new name because of Torquemada and his Inquisition, or Texans need a new name because of Rick Perry and his Politics.

In the end, I think both sides have good points and good elements, and both sides have some really questionable elements and tactics.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:55 pm

It's not a "guilty by association" argument. It's a "your basic argument is bad and you should feel bad" argument. The movement did not start out of some idealistic "ethics in game journalism" crusade. It started out of a flat-out instance of harassment and misogyny.

Trying to bolt an "ethics in game journalism" crusade on to what is essentially a hate group has to be the most ridiculously stupid thing anyone has ever done. It is, quite literally, at the level of saying "well, we are strongly in support of the Constitution, and so are these Ku Klux Klan folks, so let's join their bandwagon!"

If you actually care about ethics in game journalism, then you should be smart enough to recognize that literally none of the things GamerGaters are doing have anything to do with ethics in game journalism. In fact, you should be actively denouncing most of what people are doing under the GG hashtag, because it's almost all reprehensible and counter to your actual cause.

And if you aren't smart enough to see that, well... I feel pretty justified in feeling disappointed then.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:58 pm

In other words, you pretty much have to be stupid or uninformed to think that GG actually stands for anything resembling ethics. And I'd prefer to think that people I like are just woefully uninformed, not willful ignorant/stupid.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:03 pm

Or I could be like Ben Grimm and say Fuck Captain America and Iron Man, I'll go vacation in France while they beat each other over who's right over the Superhero Registration Act.

Sometimes, apathy is a valid solution when you've been hit in the crossfire by both sides.

I've commended and condemned actions on both sides; I've been pestered when I support one or the other --- I aint gonna martyr myself for either side.

So I prefer to just pack my bags and leave.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:23 pm

I don't know how you can see this as two equal "sides." One side is basically providing a platform for harassing women (and anyone willing to support women) under a pathetically-thin veil of "ethics." The other side is a bunch of people getting harassed.

The majority of GG arguments are expressly anti-equality or anti-women. I don't doubt there are a few that actually believe (misguided or not) that this is somehow about ethics. But they are in the vast minority.

On the other side, you have a bunch of women (and men who support women's rights, equality, and so on) who just don't want to be harassed. Again, I don't doubt there are some "extremists" on this side, but they are in the vanishingly-small minority. How many serious death threats against GamerGaters have there been? How many times more have there been against high-profile women and/or news sites that support women?

I mean, I don't really care if you don't want to choose a side. But if you can honestly look at this and say that the GG side has some good points, or that this is a silly battle over a trivial or inconsequential topic, you must be wearing the thickest rose-tinted glasses I've ever seen.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:55 pm

Well, that part I'll at least agree with. I don't really want to get in the middle of it for the same reason - it's just a hotbed of conflict. But I'm married to a feminist engineer, so I'm too well-versed in this subject to be fooled into seeing the GG "side" of things.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:00 pm

Guys!

It's ok! we can all go home. Cernovich has declared tonight that GamerGate is ACTUALLY about free speech!

You know.... if it were about Free Speech, we wouldn't have even been talking about ethics in journalism. Because... Free Speech, Bloggers, and what not.


EDIT: (Proof)
https://twitter.com/PlayDangerously/sta ... 3741660160
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:54 pm

Guys, can I leave you aside for a few hours of sleep without having a whole gang-pileup?

'Nyway, I'm gonna try and touch everything fast and get to work on that big message. Don't be afraid to further comment in a civil tone, and even to move this along to another topic if this gets bloated. Just, avoid the name-calling and agression, that'll help everyone involved.

Kysen, and to an extend Shoju, the vibe I'm getting from you is something along the lines of "there may be good points to the Gamergate PoV, but they're rendered worthless by all the bile and abuse that we have been shown they are throwing. Defense of ethics is but a woeful minority."

To which, getting back to theck's anger, I will simply add a "source?" pending, with a reminder that the "official positive" complain from Gamergate is a problem with journalists pushing their agenda at the expense of fairness, and that more than a minority of GG is actually supportive of women's right in both the gaming hobby and gaming industry (see #NotYourShield, a tag of women/minorities expressing how they don't believe supporting both women/minorities/feminism and Gamergate is paradoxical - source pending) Don't stress on me throwing the onus of work on you guys, I'm also piling up sources for that big post I talked about, so I'm also working on it :)

Touching back to SHoju's last message, I just read the twitter and the links therein and I'm having a hard time getting what the trouble is, apart from someone shouting about Gamergate also being about free speech, which is, TBH a bit of a stretch, but not entirely unfounded.

You could make a point about trying to shut up journalists, but the point is more to have journalists not push their agenda under a flase pretense of objectivity.

I'll conclude this short (*cough*) message by hoping no-one will feel attacked in their personal beliefs by my words. In an amusing reflection, I believe that you have merely been uninformed, and I'm mostly sticking around answering questions and clarifying information and opinions from my side of the pond.

TO which I'll add I've been hurt by your words, theck. Or more precisely, by the messages that followed you first, fairly reasonable comment, with the deadspin link (which I'll have to and will touch on also). Comparing GG to the KKK, while it containt blacks, asian, latinos, women, gays and miscelaneous is nearly slanderous. It felt woefully raging coming from someone whose objectvity I had long admired and respected.

And to conclude before I start working on the big post, to anyone that would believe I stand against women, I'll just remind them of the Relationship thread to get a good feeling as to who I am an what I believe in. If you feel I'm merely uninformed, I ask you again to bring up examples of your problems with Gamergate, like Shoju, Kysen and theck (in his first post) did.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:19 am

What do you mean, exactly, by journalists "pushing their agenda at the expense of fairness"? Most of the "agenda" that gamergate seems to be opposed to is people critcising the unfair treatment of women and minorities in our culture.

This is what I'm talking about when I say that the only part of gamergate that seems to have tangible goals are the ones who are trying to drive women and minorities out of gaming.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Sagara » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:34 am

Duly noted, and disagreed on. I'll get back to that, but in the meanwhile, I wanted to drop something I just stumbled on while surfing around for sources:

It seems gamers have built up a website that seems to mostly serve as a repository of pro-gg infos of all sorts: http://gamergate.me/2014/10/what-is-gamergate/

And I had forgotten to talk about http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate - this one's a bit more virulent, and the image and video folder is probably way too big to visit in one sitting, but the main article can give another view on the pro-gg.

That'll probably give something to chew on while I manage to get something together (unlike Jehova's witnesses, I'm not walking around with a standardized folder to whip out anytime someone has a question :-p)
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:34 am

To my shame, I actually got a long way into a long post going through that first link and pointing out how most of its accusations and evidence are bullshit or willfully ignoring the activities of people on gamergate's side. Then I thought what the fuck am I doing this for? and realised I do not want to waste this much of my time responding to the most obviously one-sided, poorly-reasoned bullshit possible. It's not worth the energy.

I encourage you to make the same decision and not waste your time writing a big post defending gamergate. I'm not interested in discussing it any further. I've got better things to do than expose myself to this.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:23 am

The only source that you need to look at, when deciding whether or not the good points of gamergate are being rendered useless by the shitheels is Main Stream Media.

Now, as a GG'er, you will say "But that's not fair".

And I will say, You're absolutely right, but when you are trying to push a movement, that will forever change the way something is done, you have to change the minds, of more than just your little corner of the world. You have to find supporters in the outliers to help you succeed. And that, for something like this, is going to be done in the mainstream media.

And at this point, the only thing that is getting serious coverage, is the Doxxing of female gamers, the death threats, the rape threats, the vicious attacks and insults being hurled about, and the fact that Gamergate is just about the most unorganized... "thing" ever.

As far as my links. Your take on it, is.... very general.

This is Cernovich. This is Play Dangerously. The new big bad internet tough guy, anti bully, monster rager, who wants to fight people for money to donate to charity when they don't agree with him, attempt to flaunt his power as an attorney, claim he has been doxxed when all someone did was link to his publicly disclosed information that can be found on the 8th link on page 1 of google (I verified this myself by googling Cernovich, Attnorey, California)

And this is the wanker that is currently holding the "leashes" of the frothing rabid dogs of GamerGate.

It also touches on the fact that GamerGate "has been about" something different SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MANY times, that it's laughable. Seriously. There could be an entire meme website setup, that just linked to all the different things that "Pro GamerGate'rs" have said that GG is about.

Free Speech
Anit Bullying
Ethics in Gaming Journalism

And on and on and on and on.

I'm not offended. But I'm not misled or uninformed either. I have spent WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much time trying to form an opinion on gamergate (seriously, so much that my wife and I got in an argument based on how long I had stayed up trying to sort through and sift through the piles upon piles of forum posts, and chans, and strings, and reddits, and OH MY GOD IT IS INSANITY.

I'm not saying that you stand against women "personally" But I'm saying that you've decided to stand with those who do. And their misogyny, their hatred, their bile, their attacks on people, absolutely reflect on your position, and decision to stand with them.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:54 am

So, basically this?
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:21 am

Sagara wrote:To which, getting back to theck's anger, I will simply add a "source?" pending, with a reminder that the "official positive" complain from Gamergate is a problem with journalists pushing their agenda at the expense of fairness, and that more than a minority of GG is actually supportive of women's right in both the gaming hobby and gaming industry (see #NotYourShield, a tag of women/minorities expressing how they don't believe supporting both women/minorities/feminism and Gamergate is paradoxical - source pending) Don't stress on me throwing the onus of work on you guys, I'm also piling up sources for that big post I talked about, so I'm also working on it :)

Like Kysen, I don't really feel that this is worth me spending a lot of time on. A lot the points in both of your links are easily debunked or undermined by a simple application of logic and critical thinking. The "what is gamergate" site in particular is pretty laughable. It reads like a bad conspiracy novel, trying to paint Social Justice advocates (which, by the way, is not a perjorative - if you respect women, you should also consider yourself a feminist, and thus in favor of social justice) as some sort of fringe group trying to destroy gaming.

So, let me get this straight. It's fine to paint a huge group of people (women and people disgusted with GG) with a broad brush based on a few tenuous examples of "SJWs" trying to somehow destroy "gamers," whatever the fuck you think that means. But when that huge group of people points out that the majority of GG's arguments are laughably bad and make women feel uncomfortable, then it's not okay to paint with a broad brush? Or when we point out that the core of GG is centered around harassment of women, to the point that we are seeing daily examples of doxxing, death threats, and other types of harassment under the GG hashtag... that's not okay?

Bullshit. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Either you have to recognize that the majority of Anti-GG are just disgusted with the harassment agenda that GG represents, or you have to recognize that what your group is known for is its despicable element. You can't have it both ways.


Also, where exactly is this "ethics in game journalism" bent coming from. Even your KYM link points out that the entire movement started out of an angry post by an ex-boyfriend of ZQ which made demonstrably false accusations about her sleeping with a reporter for a review. And the link even provides the evidence that those accusations were false. So your own site solidifies the fact that GG started as a harassment campaign.

The "movement" has tacked on stuff to try and bolster that ethics complaint, but most of it is, as I said, laughable. If you look through the links of points (1) through (11), you do not find convincing evidence of a widespread, conspiracy-like (or in your site's words, "mafia-like") behavior. You find a few isolated incidents, and a bunch of garbage that is being trumped up to make it seem like an incident. News flash: the real media has isolated incidents like this too, because it's made of people, and people make mistakes.

Furthermore, the irony of all of this is that the GamerGate hashtag itself has done more to "perpetuation of the tired old stereotype of gamers as the mythical straight, white, male, basement-dwelling, infantile, misogynist horde of the internet" (again, your words, not mine!) than anything the games media has been doing in the past five years.

Points (12) and (13) are particularly interesting though:
(12) Journalists in financial relationships with their subjects[33]
(13) Journalists in sexual relationships with their subjects[34][35][36][37]

Twelve makes some sense, except that again, this happens all the time in real journalism. It is not inherently an ethics problem.

For example, I'll use something that came up in a conversation with my wife. She reads Vogue. Vogue often has "articles" that laud the latest new fashion from X or Y designer, which just happens to also show up on several ad pages in that article. In other words, it has plenty of fluff pieces that are thinly-veiled advertisements. And everyone who reads Vogue knows this, and... nobody cares. There aren't cries of a breach of "ethics in journalism," because the readers are smart enough to recognize what they're reading and what biases the source carries. It's no different than watching Fox News and recognizing that you're getting a conservatively-slanted opinion, or watching MSNBC and recognizing that you're getting a liberally-biased opinion. The viewer always has to take some responsibility for thinking critically about the source.

So... why is that not okay in games journalism again? In fact, it happens all the time - as the Deadspin article points out, any number of sites get a game to review before it's released, and thus have to have some arrangement (financial or otherwise) with the publisher to get that access. If you read such a review online, you should instantly realize that. It would be great if they did disclose those arrangements, but they're under no legal obligation to do so. Many good review sites already do this, specifically because it gives their readers a level of confidence in the review, which is good business sense.

Saying that they need to do so because ~ethics~ is basically admitting that you're too damn stupid to be able to tell the difference between Vogue or The Daily Inquirer and the New York Times. Is that what you want to say about yourself?

(13) is even sillier, and more to the point, blatantly misogynistic. It is basically alleging that there is a widespread problem with people sleeping with other people for reviews. Yet, out of the four links, they accuse three people.
  • One (ZQ) is clearly innocent of the accusations, making three of those links extremely clumsy hatchet jobs rather than investigative reporting.
  • One is a make Kotaku writer who contributed to ZQ's patreon - again, not an instance of sleeping for reviews - despite the fact that the only article he's written that has anything to do with ZQ is a piece discussing her online harassment, not a review of her game.
  • The third accuses Patricia Hernandez of writing reviews of an indie game whose developer she happens to be friends with, and may have roomed with in the past. But again... there's no indication they had a sexual relationship.

So in other words, you're very interested in who's having sex with who, despite no evidence whatsoever that anyone is doing it for positive game reviews. This is nothing more than a thinly-veiled attempt to slut-shame, and it's despicable.

Sagara wrote:TO which I'll add I've been hurt by your words, theck. Or more precisely, by the messages that followed you first, fairly reasonable comment, with the deadspin link (which I'll have to and will touch on also). Comparing GG to the KKK, while it containt blacks, asian, latinos, women, gays and miscelaneous is nearly slanderous. It felt woefully raging coming from someone whose objectvity I had long admired and respected.


Again, this is the sort of bullshit rhetoric that defines the GG movement. You're not addressing the substance of the complaint, you're trying to sidestep it with semantics. Are you not familiar with the concept of an analogy?

GG is a situation in which you have a reprehensible set of people, in this case the one who started the movement as a harassment campaign against ZQ that has broadened to other women (like BWu and AS, and now Felicia Day) who have expressed disappointment with the harassment campaign or provided critical analysis of games. It has fooled a number of (I believe) well-intentioned people (like yourself... I hope) into thinking it's about ethics in game journalism by bolting that cause on to the harassment campaign to lend it legitimacy. In fact, the "NotYourShield" hashtag is exactly the same thing - an attempt to give it legitimacy by reacting to a strawman (nobody has outright said that all gamers are white basement-dwelling males except GG members themselves). The poor people who actually have strong feelings about ethics in game journalism have thus attached a nominally-acceptable cause to a giant ball of disgusting bile.

How, exactly, is this different from bolting a nominally-acceptable cause (like being "in support of the Constitution") to a vile, reprehensible group that also claims to be "in support of the Constitution" (the KKK)? In fact, it isn't any different, which makes it a very good analogy for what's going on here.

I should hope you can discern the difference between an analogy and "GG is the KKK." I'm pretty sure you're smarter than that, and if not, then I'm not sure there's much point in furthering this discussion. If you can explain the flaw in that analogy to me without resorting to the pathetic (and logically indefensible) "real GamerGaters" argument, I'll be happy to recant.


Sagara wrote:And to conclude before I start working on the big post, to anyone that would believe I stand against women, I'll just remind them of the Relationship thread to get a good feeling as to who I am an what I believe in.


This is the part that confuses me. If you are in a loving, respectful relationship, you should be accustomed to seeing women as equals. Which makes it incomprehensible to me why you would throw your lot in with GG, a group that is for all intents and purposes about harassing women.

Nothing Anita Sarkeesian has said in her videos is the slightest bit radical. In fact, it's pretty tame - you could get more biting critique in a 100-level cultural analysis class. Yet somehow she's a lightning rod for GG, despite being the epitome of "ethics in game journalism." She's self-funded, her critique holds up to academic rigor, and she's presented it in a very clear and matter-of-fact way (i.e. not "all men are evil," but "this is how women are portrayed in games"). The fact that GG is harassing her should appall you enough to not want to be associated with that group in the first place.

So, yeah, if you really want "ethics in game journalism," despite the fact that I think this is a bit of a frivolous pursuit on its face, you should not be tying yourself to a hashtag that is known primarily for being "Twitter Misogynists Club." As long as GG is not an organized movement with a clear leader and set of goals, but instead a loose collection of internet trolls, some part of which is publicly and frequently harassing women under the GG banner, it will not and can not be taken seriously as a movement. At best, it's a hate group with some poor dupes that think it has noble goals as a veneer over the layers of awful.

If you really want ethics in game journalism, you should be publicly deriding the harassment and supporting people like ZQ, BWu, and AS, who have not demonstrated any unethical behavior. You should be critical of sites (like IGN, for example) who provide the equivalent of paid advertising rather than reasoned critique. You should be supportive of the women who feel scared and intimidated by the harassment performed under the GG banner. And you should abandon the GG hashtag altogether and create a real organized movement for ethics in journalism under a different tag, which you start, that can embody the "noble" cause you actually stand for and also be clearly in support of women in gaming.

Tottering along waving the GG flag without realizing how intimidating and frightened it makes the women around you feel is tone-deaf and shows an incredible level of compartmentalization. And that's really all I care to say on the subject.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:30 am

Yeah, this is clearly not worth spending a lot of time on. *vomits giant blog-length post*

Anyway, I am relatively well-informed on this topic. I am friends with a lot of feminists, and my wife is VP of our local NOW chapter. We talk about this sort of thing a lot. GG has made her feel like she shouldn't identify as a gamer because it seems to embody the thing it outright claims it isn't - a club dedicated to keeping games focused on white males, and excluding anyone who doesn't agree with them.

The Deadspin article is spot-on, in my opinion. This is grievance politics, applied to gaming. It's the no-thought, this-makes-me-feel-bad-so-I'm-going-to-throw-a-tantrum-about-it-until-I-get-my-way approach to resisting change. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to solidify and have a clear organization, clear message, and clear identification. GamerGate is none of those things, and as long as you rely on the "well, they're not real GG'ers" argument to shield yourself from criticism, you won't be taken seriously.

And on a personal note, informed/intelligent people will think less of you for tying yourself to that group. It's as bad as the NotAllMen garbage that was going around twitter a few months ago. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that there's an inequity at play, and if you recognize that you know that trying to pass it off as "Not All Men" is about making you feel better about yourself. If you're truly supportive of women, you either dive into the trenches with them and join their fight, or recognize that men are operating from a point of privilege and support them when they point it out.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:34 am

Addendum 3: I hope none of that is taken too personally, Sagara. I can get rather heated about this topic because it gets me angry, but I don't have any particular hatred or dislike towards you. I do, however, hope you see my point - that if you sit down and think about this critically, GG isn't a noble cause at heart, and isn't a productive way to encourage gaming journalism to be more ethical. Even if you personally believe in ethics in game journalism, you don't represent the majority of GGers, and certainly don't represent what the movement is seen to be about by anyone outside the movement.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:52 am

Well said Theck. Anger on the topic is the reason I decided it was better for me not to put so much energy into addressing this, but you've made the points better than I could have.

(Allow me to anticipate the response to that by pointing out that anger is a very valid response to some issues, so long as it is applied in ways that are not intended to harm.)

Now I need to go distract myself for a few hours. Perhaps with some gaming.
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