Unexpected simc stat weights

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Unexpected simc stat weights

Postby lostmage » Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Hey,

I've recently started using simc to sim my prot pally to generate my own stat weights for reforge/gemming/etc. I was expecting to still see the usual hit > exp > haste > mastery > other order, but I got some unexpected results.

Here are my results.
http://imgur.com/HKj7JRg

The options I used were 25000 iterations, T16N10 boss, with everything else set to the default.
This was from using simc 548-1, but I saw similar results with 547-4.
I tried simming vs a harder hitting boss (T16H10) and had similar results.

I'm curious if this actually means hit > exp > mastery > haste > other for me, or if I'm using simc wrong. Any advice would be appreciated, thanks!
lostmage
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:20 pm

Re: Unexpected simc stat weights

Postby Kelerei » Tue May 20, 2014 11:20 pm

What's your haste percentage on your character sheet? At 50% haste, the GCD is reduced to 1 second and isn't reduced further, so, at this point, you're better capping haste at 50% and putting further itemization into your next-best secondary stat (mastery).
Kelerei
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:21 am
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Re: Unexpected simc stat weights

Postby lostmage » Wed May 21, 2014 9:22 am

I'm at 40.57%, or 17243 haste, well short of the 50% or 20500 or so to cap.
lostmage
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:20 pm

Re: Unexpected simc stat weights

Postby theckhd » Wed May 21, 2014 3:38 pm

I'd have to see the entire report (including your character info) to be able to tell you. There are several situations in which you can get a mastery>haste result, though they're generally uncommon.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8030
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Unexpected simc stat weights

Postby lostmage » Wed May 21, 2014 6:53 pm

Here's the full report: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yof34k7yvwgpo ... geras.html
Here's another one on a harder boss: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dfnjaln3n44lh ... Pally.html

Character was imported from bnet armor, US region, Sargeras server, Galonash

I used the default rotation that came in with the import.
lostmage
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:20 pm

Re: Unexpected simc stat weights

Postby theckhd » Fri May 23, 2014 7:42 pm

A few comments:
1) Note that the error bars on those stat weights are still fairly large, such that the mastery and haste error bars overlap significantly. That's a measure of how certain we are in the stat weights. Mastery is probably better than haste, but there's probably a ~30% chance or so that it's not. And they're likely to be pretty close to one another even if Mastery is better. We are, on the other hand, quite sure that they're both worse than hit/exp and both better than str, dodge, etc.

2) Against the weaker boss, your TMI is only about 44k, which means that "dangerous" spikes were only about 44% of your health. That's not all that dangerous, and as you can see from the health timeline you're self-sufficient on average (i.e. you're healing up all of the damage you're taking and then some). This self-sufficiency situation is one of the cases I mentioned earlier in the thread in which it's not uncommon to see mastery overtake haste in TMI stat weights.

3) Against the stronger boss, your TMI is still sub-100k, and in any event at high Vengeance values you're almost always self-sufficient with EF. This is really a limitation of how SimC handles Vengeance (thanks to no taunt swaps) and the insane scaling of EF with AP.

4) SotR uptime is 77%. That means that most of the time, 3 out of the 4 attacks that you'll take in a 6-second period are covered by SotR. That also lends itself to mastery>haste. Being a little over 75% means that adding more haste has a relatively small effect - it'll only remove a small amount of the remaining cases where you take 2 back-to-back unmitigated attacks. On the other hand, buffing mastery makes all of the mitigated attacks smaller, and increases the chance you'll block one of those two unmitigated ones. If SotR uptime were, say, 70%, then the haste should be a larger effect because there would be a significant number of back-to-back unmitigated attacks to be reduced.

TLDR: It's not all that surprising to get mastery>haste in that situation, it's actually pretty normal. Once you get to the self-sufficiency point, stat weights get a little wonky.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8030
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Unexpected simc stat weights

Postby Thels » Tue May 27, 2014 10:32 am

Also keep in mind that that's your stat weights at your current stats (ie, around 40% haste). If you gem and reforge everything into mastery (you can do this in AMR without actually affecting your character), and then sim again, you will most likely see haste skyrocket and mastery drop like a brick.

And remember that even during the early days of MoP, when it wasn't clear yet which of haste and mastery was better, most of us geared towards haste, since it gives us a good amount of bonus damage output, whereas mastery gives us none. If haste and mastery provide identical survivability, anyone with half a brain would go with haste.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Unexpected simc stat weights

Postby lostmage » Tue May 27, 2014 3:16 pm

Thanks, I'll continue to gem/reforge haste where possible, but not be too picky about mastery or haste on gear (so a exp/mastery ring will work as well as an exp/haste one).

Theck, based on the reasons you gave for why mastery has increased value, I'm curious why the sim results for your pally on your blog (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mzd7rwhu6i00h ... w_tmi.html) has haste >> mastery. It looks like all the reasons mentioned (<100k TMI, 80% SotR uptime) still apply, but yet your stat weights favor haste way above mastery.
lostmage
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:20 pm

Re: Unexpected simc stat weights

Postby theckhd » Fri May 30, 2014 7:13 am

Because it depends on all of your stats, just not those particular ones. For example, in the sim you mentioned I have significantly more mastery (~36% to your ~31%), about 8 million more health, a little more haste, and 15% expertise to your ~13%. Adding mastery will generally make mastery less valuable and haste more valuable (SotR uptime becomes more valuable). Being below expertise cap will reduce the value of haste (because you can miss HPGs). I'm not sure if the health makes a big difference in the stat weights - I can come up with rationalizations for why it can hurt or help each one, but I'm not sure which effect dominates.

In short, it's just like Ret: certain gear sets will be heavier in one stat than another and lead to different stat weights. It all comes down to the specific configuration, and changing one piece can tip the balance.

Think of it like a hilly elevation map, where east/west corresponds to mastery and north/south corresponds to haste. You might be standing on the side of a hill, and the ascent is steeper facing north than facing east. But if you move to a different spot on the hill, you might find that all of the sudden it's steeper facing east than facing north. Moving from spot to spot is changing gear, and the slope in each direction is analogous to the stat weights.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8030
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA


Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest