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Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:06 am
by Thels
http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=8142

Basically, if you have Thok's Tail Tip, or another Amplify trinket, and you either Sim your own character, or use weights provided from sites of EJ that already account for an Amplify trinket, AMR is completely useless, as it adjust the weights just because you got the trinket equipped, which means it basically applies the trinket's effect twice, and therefor provides complete garbage...

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:31 am
by Fetzie
Thels wrote:http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=8142

Basically, if you have Thok's Tail Tip, or another Amplify trinket, and you either Sim your own character, or use weights provided from sites of EJ that already account for an Amplify trinket, AMR is completely useless, as it adjust the weights just because you got the trinket equipped, which means it basically applies the trinket's effect twice, and therefor provides complete garbage...


Can't you un-equip the Thok's Tail Tip, and tell it to aim for eg. 19919 haste (flex 2/2 trinket) instead of 21250?

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:23 pm
by Kal
I see this as a reason to not use AMR with Thok's equipped, not necessarily in any other given circumstance. Aside from this particular, obvious bug (due to a relatively new mechanic), AMR is simply a calculator/gear list. I really don't understand this kind of broad-brushed criticism of AMR. If this were titled "AMR bugged concerning Thok's" that would make sense, but the way you approach this seems unnecessarily combative and dismissive.

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:10 pm
by Thels
Fetzie wrote:
Thels wrote:http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=8142

Basically, if you have Thok's Tail Tip, or another Amplify trinket, and you either Sim your own character, or use weights provided from sites of EJ that already account for an Amplify trinket, AMR is completely useless, as it adjust the weights just because you got the trinket equipped, which means it basically applies the trinket's effect twice, and therefor provides complete garbage...


Can't you un-equip the Thok's Tail Tip, and tell it to aim for eg. 19919 haste (flex 2/2 trinket) instead of 21250?


Still, it's odd that you need to go trough such kind of loopholes to get your stuff right, and that there is no actual warning given for this kind of behavior.

Kal wrote:I see this as a reason to not use AMR with Thok's equipped, not necessarily in any other given circumstance. Aside from this particular, obvious bug (due to a relatively new mechanic), AMR is simply a calculator/gear list. I really don't understand this kind of broad-brushed criticism of AMR. If this were titled "AMR bugged concerning Thok's" that would make sense, but the way you approach this seems unnecessarily combative and dismissive.


While I agree I might've written this in a more hostile way than required, this does not relate to a bug, but an active decision on AMR's part. AMR often actively decides to do things in a certain way "because we feel like doing it like this", despite various theorycrafters explaining them it's not smart to do it that way.

Either way, I apologize for the nature of my post. I mostly sought to inform people, as most people are unaware that the feature is included.

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:09 pm
by Kal
Written word does not include tone of voice, unfortunately. I think I'm overreacting due to certain band wagoners that don't have any sense of proportion (not anyone here).

About this active decisions thing, I do remember the Rune of Re-Origination being wonky for a while on AMR, and the way it settled wasn't to my liking. Are there any other major problems this tier? Concerning the Thok's trinket problem specifically, how bad is the mistake? Worse than gemming for avoidance? Not gemming at all? What I want to know if these problems are systematic enough, and bad enough (i.e. worse than gemming avoidance) to necessitate switching to a different calculator.

I think the most relevant quote from the forums linked earlier is "We have to write the optimizer to be generic -- so we chose an implementation that will work across all specs." This seems to be the site's inherent weakness. If they tried to do everything exactly right, the overload of work would be too costly for them. For this reason, I've always recommended it specifically for it's gem/enchant/reforge options, as well as a catalogue of gear, but not as any final authority on upgrades/stat weights. I've been skeptical of it's accuracy in valuing gear upgrades, but for that we have other sims.

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:11 am
by Thels
It's mostly a problem if Haste and/or Mastery aren't your best stat (Crit is, for example), but they're very close. Say you sim your character, and get something like Crit 5, Haste 4.7, Mastery 4.8. Naturally, you should be gemming and reforging to crit. If you plug those values into AMR, it might recommend gemming and reforging into mastery, because AMR notices you got Thok's equipped, and then decides to push Mastery and Haste up in value. However, with socket bonuses, the same issue can apply. Say it might be worth it to use a Str/Haste gem to get a Crit socket bonus, but because Haste is boosted further, AMR decides to skip the socket bonus, and go full haste gem.

They posted a bit of additional information, and apparently, the biggest reason they're doing it this way, is to check for gear upgrades, as of course for upgrades they have to calculate Thok's bonus to consider it's upgrade value. However, considering the effect of Crit varies wildly from class to class and spec to spec, this is a simple estimate at most.

There was an issue earlier in the expansion, where they were explaining that it was never ever good to hit/exp cap, and thus AMR would never ever hit/exp cap you, unless you had extremely wonky Hit and Expertise ratings. Only when theorycrafter after theorycrafter explained them that there were good reasons for a lot of specs to actually cap hit/expertise, as doing like 50k more total damage over the course of an entire fight wasn't even remotely as important as never missing a spell and screwing up your rotation when an add needed to die really fast, did they finally give in, and added a "cap hit/exp" option, included with a warning that you should never use that option.

For 6.0 this could become rather... interesting, with Amplify being a new stat. That's gonna cause some headaches to work out well.

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:27 am
by Skye1013
Thels wrote:For 6.0 this could become rather... interesting, with Amplify being a new stat. That's gonna cause some headaches to work out well.

Ideally, with proper feedback, they'll be able to better fine tune how the amplify works so it isn't as much of an issue when the stats change up in 6.0.

Regardless, AMR has never been the 100% go to source for all of your gear upgrading needs. Much like BMI when it comes to determining obesity... it's merely a tool to use to get a general idea of where you stand.

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:41 am
by Thels
Skye1013 wrote:Regardless, AMR has never been the 100% go to source for all of your gear upgrading needs. Much like BMI when it comes to determining obesity... it's merely a tool to use to get a general idea of where you stand.


True. A lot of people Sim their character, then plug their weights into AMR, and let AMR tell them how to gem/enchant/reforge. That's what it's good at, not at finding BiS gear, which it often fails at.

However, they decided to prioritize their accuracy of finding BiS gear (which is already rather inaccurate), thereby breaking the Sim -> Gem cycle that they were actually doing quite ok at, without even giving so much as a warning.

Not even giving a warning about that feature is probably the weirdest thing...

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:31 am
by jere
Does the site work correctly if you don't use stat weights that already adjust for the trinket? Your original post indicates that the site does the modification, but then modified stats are used on top of that. Unless I read that wrong?

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:56 am
by KysenMurrin
If you're simming the character yourself - which is the best way to do it - I don't think there's any way to get weights that don't depend on what gear you're using. So this would make AMR totally useless, with it changing the weights you're trying to specifically use.

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:30 pm
by jere
Are you able to generate weights that take everything but the trinket's effect into account? I'm missing how this makes it totally useless though. I thought we were talking about it doing this due to Thok's trinket. Is it changing weights on you no matter what your gear is?

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:28 am
by Thels
When you have an Amplify trinket such as Thok's equipped, it'll modify the weights. It'll also modify the weights when you try to search for a BiS set, and the BiS set has an amplify trinket.

You could of course Sim your character without Thok's trinket equipped, and then use those values, but it's certainly more accurate to let SimC determine the values of the amplify trinket, than letting AMR guess the values. It's not even exactly clear how AMR scales values such as crit based on the trinket.

If you don't have the Amplify trinket, then it's no big deal. But the Amplify trinket is like BiS for a lot of classes.

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:47 pm
by Kal
My defenses of the site aside, I do think this:
Image

Re: Another good reason NOT to use AMR

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:22 am
by Thels
It doesn't seem like the AMR staff has any desire to "Fix" the issue.

Does anyone know of any similar sites?