Ghostcrawler Quits!

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:48 am

jere wrote:
Thels wrote:I have totally forgotten what the pre 1.9 talent looked like.


I found a 1.6 talent tree that should be pretty close to the same (if not exactly) to 1.8 as well.

http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=1604500_2

Prior to being allowed to tank in raids, I spec'd improved Blessing of Salvation because single cast 5 minute blessings sucked. 15 min blessings were awesome! I also spec'ed Sanctitiy Aura at one point, though only paladins and priests cared about that (and not much there either).


Oh wow. I leveled a paladin from day 1 (EU), but I have totally forgotten what the pre-1.9 tier looked like. All I could remember was that we didn't have RF, but SoF, which honestly wasn't a convenient tool, though unlike RF, it must've dealt enough threat.

I'm so looking "Where is this?", "Where is that?" in this tree. Everything feels so wrong. :P As far as I can remember, Consecration was 11 points into Holy. :P The only thing I do remember from this build is BoK being deep into retri, because the other paladins would fight over who would use the 20/0/31 spec for that month.



I remember Sanctity Aura from TBC, where it gave the 6% healing received, so we had in our MT group:
- Prot Warrior - Battle Shout
- Prot Warrior - Commanding Shout
- Prot Paladin - Sanctity Aura
- Holy Paladin - Devotion Aura
- Warlock - Imp
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fetzie » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:04 am

So a dedicated paladin tank in those days would have specced something like this:

http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=1604 ... 0500501100

Man, talents were pretty bad back then weren't they?
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:47 am

Thels wrote:I remember Sanctity Aura from TBC, where it gave the 6% healing received, so we had in our MT group:
- Prot Warrior - Battle Shout
- Prot Warrior - Commanding Shout
- Prot Paladin - Sanctity Aura
- Holy Paladin - Devotion Aura
- Warlock - Imp

You remember wrong. Improved Sanctity Aura gave 3% damage done. It was improved devotion aura that gave 6% healing received and only when WotLK hit and SA got removed.
Non Improved Sanctity aura gave nothing to any non prot/ret pala.

I said RIP 40/21 as I was back then the big promoter of the non-Avenger Shield build without Ardent Defender and probably the only one who dared progression tank Brutallus with it. Doing 800 DPS as tank on Brutallus was fun though and a huge help to beat the Enrage.
Before the revamp of Combat Expertise (added stamina), I used to run 38/23 actually.

Talent calcs here: http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=2438606_2

Old glorious SA spec before Combat Expertise revamp: http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=2438 ... 003003012h
And 40/21 after: http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=2438 ... 000300301i
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:59 am

And I forgot, the "standard" prot pala build
http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=2438 ... 155150135r

1 point in Improved Judgement cause it would have messed up the rotation with 8 :P
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:39 am

http://www.wowwiki.com/Sanctity_Aura

It actually was that way early in TBC, but got eventually Axed.

I think we still kept that format, because I really wanted that 10% threat buff, and the other paladin and warlock stayed there to buff the tanks.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:13 am

Worldie wrote:I said RIP 40/21 as I was back then the big promoter of the non-Avenger Shield build without Ardent Defender and probably the only one who dared progression tank Brutallus with it.


There were a few people who prog tanked Brutallus as 40/21; you were just the loudest advocate :lol:

I remember doing all kinds of bizarre shit, like stripping naked just before the pull so replenishing mana bar would generate some extra threat, and toggling RF to dump mana for more regen threat.

I remember farming stacks of Bloodthistle and Destruction Potions for this.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:55 am

Gonna miss things like this
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:39 am

Thels wrote:
jere wrote:EDIT:
I realize a lot of you guys/gals didn't tank pre BC (very few paladins did...All I can remember off hand was Sabin and myself), so you may not have any experience of how bad it is really was (especially the paladin tank sundering of 1.9). BC was a huge breath of fresh air for anyone that was tanking in Vanilla, even with all the incompleteness and warrior=main tank design. I'm sure Sabin and I could drum up some old man stories for ya though (I.E. "back in my day, we didn't have no stinking taunts. we had to use pure threat to grab aggro and we had to work hard for it!")


Tank sundering of 1.9? Wasn't 1.9 a good thing? It gave us Righteous Fury.

Before that, we had to work with Seal of Fury, which meant we couldn't use another Seal, and/or Judgement of Fury, which meant that any ret paladins would get lots of aggro. And while ret paladins were in just as bad a spot as prot paladins, you kinda needed to bring one along for Judgement of Wisdom, or you'd go OOM in no time.

Righteous Fury made tanking feel like a breeze compared to before that.


Well SoF + JoF + R1 Consecrate was pretty good threat... on the Molten Core tier. Past that it couldn't keep up and didn't scale. Ret Paladins grabbing aggro? Lol whatever. Ret Paladins didn't do damage in those days, it was the Rogues and Warriors and Mages you had to be afraid of. The real problem was when you ran out of mana and couldn't get enough of it back with SoW while also keeping up aggro generation.

Righteous Fury was certainly a better idea, but we still didn't have good ways to scale our damage in 1.9. Paladin gear outside Tier 2/2.5 didn't do anything for us, and wearing full Tier 2 was essentially ignoring survivability. Warriors on the other hand got to both scale their threat and get gear with defense/avoidance/armor on it. ALSO I'd like to point out that Paladins, back before they normalized this, had one of the lowest base health values in the game, I think just above cloth casters.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:25 pm

So, any more arguments on why we shouldn't demonize Tigole?
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:33 pm

Not from me. Fuck Warriors and fuck Tigole.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:40 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Not from me. Fuck Warriors and fuck Tigole.


Yeah. I knew you were gonna vote that way.

Just about everyone, minus someone, feels that way.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:45 pm

It's a shame that that attitude came out.

Don't get me wrong, in PVE in vanilla WoW, warriors were in a very good place. They could put out high DPS as a fury spec, and in the same spec they were more effective at tanking than a pally spec'd for tanking, just between defensive stance and available gear. In fact, we would declare a boss on farm mode when we downed it while our MT was in his fury spec.

We know now, of course, there is plenty of room for other tanking classes. Back then, whenever pallys would start asking to be viable in anything other than healing, warriors were pretty quick to suggest that we shouldn't be, which caused quite a bit of animosity. Then of course there was the perception that we already covered about the designers being pro warrior and anti hybrid. Sooo glad those days came to an end...
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:58 am

I still remind my highest satisfaction when a bit before 3.0 hit, we had a new warrior tank trial going like "omg a paladin can't be main tanking they suck" and my GM swiftly went like "stfu and use that Nightfall" ^^

And yea, the attitude "Paladins and Shamans are only healers and they suck at everything else" persisted well into Wotlk as well. It took a few months into WotLK for people to realize that the "hybrid tax" was gone and hybrid DPS/tank specs were actually viable.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:55 am

Worldie wrote:And yea, the attitude "Paladins and Shamans are only healers and they suck at everything else" persisted well into Wotlk as well. It took a few months into WotLK for people to realize that the "hybrid tax" was gone and hybrid DPS/tank specs were actually viable.


A few months? Maybe it was different on Trollbane EU, since a lot of raiding guilds on the server used a paladin during TBC, but it took very little to prove that Prot and Ret paladins were not only viable, but as strong as, if not stronger than warriors.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:53 am

It's been many years so my memory might be a bit off, but I remember people still being skeptical about ret, prot, enha, shadow, etc viability for the first part of WotLK.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:02 am

Worldie wrote:It's been many years so my memory might be a bit off, but I remember people still being skeptical about ret, prot, enha, shadow, etc viability for the first part of WotLK.

Shadow mana batteries during TBC... fun times...
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:11 am

I might be weird but I really enjoyed the mana battery role of my SP in late TBC (i did raid with it up to 3/6 sunwell pre 2.0)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby lythac » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:41 am

Sabindeus wrote:Warriors on the other hand got to both scale their threat and get gear with defense/avoidance/armor on it. ALSO I'd like to point out that Paladins, back before they normalized this, had one of the lowest base health values in the game, I think just above cloth casters.


Also being susceptible to crushing blows made the health difference even worse. Least Ferals had a higher HP than Warriors (pretty sure they did, used them on Broodlord for this reason)
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:52 am

Worldie wrote:I might be weird but I really enjoyed the mana battery role of my SP in late TBC (i did raid with it up to 3/6 sunwell pre 2.0)

Gearing was pretty easy... "does it have more SP than my current piece? win!"
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:39 am

I remind there was something about haste and being able to fit one extra mind flay between mind blasts... or was that wotlk...
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:40 am

I'm sure someone calculated haste breakpoints, but when some of your BiS are greens...
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby jere » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:50 am

lythac wrote:
Also being susceptible to crushing blows made the health difference even worse. Least Ferals had a higher HP than Warriors (pretty sure they did, used them on Broodlord for this reason)


Definitely so in Vanilla. Though at least paladins became less susceptible to Crushing Blows than warriors in TBC which helped counter the health disparity some. I was the goto tank for Prince in our guild cause I could repeatedly tank him receiving 0-1 crushing blows, which was big for us since some of our healers weren't as good as the others some nights. There was something odd about being more scared of pre-nerf Lt. Drake (or whatever the Old Hillsbrad 1st boss was named...forget now) than Prince Melch. But then 4k hamstrings and 7k whirlwinds + melee were definitely scary when you only had 10-12k health.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:32 am

Prince Melch was actually my "selling point" for the guild I had applied to (and that would become the guild that gave me my fame back then :P )

My first trial run was indeed maintanking a Kara run. Oneshotting prince with a Paladin tank in blues that took less dmg than the full epiced wars they were used to did a huge impression I believe.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:27 pm

jere wrote:
lythac wrote:
Also being susceptible to crushing blows made the health difference even worse. Least Ferals had a higher HP than Warriors (pretty sure they did, used them on Broodlord for this reason)


Definitely so in Vanilla. Though at least paladins became less susceptible to Crushing Blows than warriors in TBC which helped counter the health disparity some. I was the goto tank for Prince in our guild cause I could repeatedly tank him receiving 0-1 crushing blows, which was big for us since some of our healers weren't as good as the others some nights. There was something odd about being more scared of pre-nerf Lt. Drake (or whatever the Old Hillsbrad 1st boss was named...forget now) than Prince Melch. But then 4k hamstrings and 7k whirlwinds + melee were definitely scary when you only had 10-12k health.

Well early in TBC we had that bug with consecrate (I think) that would make you susceptible to crushing blows for a second each time you would cast it because you would put your shield on your back. Fortunately threat was pretty easy at that point, so you could stop casting it when Prince went into that beserkish mode.

My "proof" run was also in Kara, going down one of the long hallways. One of our warlocks cast seed of corruption that would bounce around and ended up pulling several groups of undead and everyone expected a wipe, but I snatched them up and survived. After that no one really doubted anything.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:44 pm

I do remind that bug. It wasn't only consecrate, it was also judgement, cleanse, exorcism. If i remember correctly, any ability that would make the character run the caster animation (thus, shealthe his weapon/shield) would make the char count as "in cast" for that GCD and thus 0% avoidance.

I actually kept a screenshot from that run...
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