Ghostcrawler Quits!

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:19 pm

Teranoid wrote:Oh so you mean just like healers in pvp are now?

They did realize healers are too strong in fact and are taking steps in that direction.

They introduced a 55% automatic mortal strike (which can be increased if needed) and at Blizzcon they talked about making CCs stronger for allowing tactical play for shutting down healers, which is already how people play in high ranked arena / rbg. A CCd healer can't heal and blows up fast.

Well if you are expecting people to focus a healer in AV rather than that big juicy tauren warrior... you are going for a bad surprise :)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Paxen » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:44 am

Shamora wrote:I kinda liked the way SWTOR handled taunts in PVP. I don't remember the numbers, but if you got taunted you did x% less damage to any other target than tank that taunted you for the duration of the taunt.


I really dig alternate mechanics for taunting players. Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition also has some ideas, often based on doing damage to the taunted character if he ignores the taunt (or mark as it's called) - a fighter gets a free attack and a paladin inflicts holy damage. The swordmage might be the most interesting, if his taunt is ignored he either reduces the damage of attacks not against him (like in SWTOR), or he teleports to the mark and gets a free attack.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:16 am

jere wrote:EDIT:
I realize a lot of you guys/gals didn't tank pre BC (very few paladins did...All I can remember off hand was Sabin and myself), so you may not have any experience of how bad it is really was (especially the paladin tank sundering of 1.9). BC was a huge breath of fresh air for anyone that was tanking in Vanilla, even with all the incompleteness and warrior=main tank design. I'm sure Sabin and I could drum up some old man stories for ya though (I.E. "back in my day, we didn't have no stinking taunts. we had to use pure threat to grab aggro and we had to work hard for it!")


Tank sundering of 1.9? Wasn't 1.9 a good thing? It gave us Righteous Fury.

Before that, we had to work with Seal of Fury, which meant we couldn't use another Seal, and/or Judgement of Fury, which meant that any ret paladins would get lots of aggro. And while ret paladins were in just as bad a spot as prot paladins, you kinda needed to bring one along for Judgement of Wisdom, or you'd go OOM in no time.

Righteous Fury made tanking feel like a breeze compared to before that.



For taunting in PvP games, I really like where taunted characters receive penalties on their attacks when attacking a creature that didn't taunt them. However, I don't think this'll fit into WoW.

I think we'd be fine as "Tough to kill" without being able to melt faces ourselves. There's already flag carrying duty, and naturally, we should be harder to kill than others, but not so that it takes the majority of the other team. There's also post defending. Lots of battlegrounds require you to capture/defend certain posts, and standing there as a tank really slows your opponent's chances down to go capture the flag.

Given, I'm not much of a PvPer, but those feel like our duties there. Doing on par damage would simply be insane.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:20 am

Well on the taunt subject, you should also consider that in Vanilla and TBC, most of the bosses were taunt immune and only very few demanded a tank swap of sort (which often is in game atm just to not have 1 tank fights and doesn't really add any other challenge to fights).
In a world where bosses are almost always taunt immune, having a taunt wasn't really needed.

I liked the flavour of RD though, sadly it was buggy as fuck so I'm sorta glad it's gone.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby jere » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:31 am

Thels wrote:Tank sundering of 1.9? Wasn't 1.9 a good thing? It gave us Righteous Fury.

Before that, we had to work with Seal of Fury, which meant we couldn't use another Seal, and/or Judgement of Fury, which meant that any ret paladins would get lots of aggro. And while ret paladins were in just as bad a spot as prot paladins, you kinda needed to bring one along for Judgement of Wisdom, or you'd go OOM in no time.

Righteous Fury made tanking feel like a breeze compared to before that.


At the time 1.9 hit, tanking gear in game had no spell power (that never came till BC). The gear currently available with spell power wasn't very good and it reduced survivability since you could no longer tank in full non spell power gear. Pre 1.9, Seal of Fury generated a lot of threat, so if you used a fast weapon that made use of the static per swing threat that Seal of Fury provided, you could generate a ton of aggro. It was very easy to snag aggro back from DPS without spell power gear, so you could go as much defense gear as you could find. 1.9 switched the dynamic to spell power gear, of which was more limited at the time and also significantly reduced survivability (mind you, I raid tanked in my guild, so talking more than just dungeons...less of an issue there).

In addition, unless you had access to partial T2, the change to spell power actually lowered your possible threat vs seal of fury with a fast weapon. Once you had 3 or 4 pieces of T2, single target threat was about the same as pre 1.9. Full T2 was more threat (though again, less survivability). If you were already at that point in gear, then you probably wouldn't have noticed. On my server, most of the few raiding guilds we had were just partially into BWL. I think we had 1 or 2 that had cleared it.

The other big change was the talent trees. Pre 1.9 Holy Shield wasn't the top talent, but about early-mid way down the tree. You could get it somewhere in the early 20's for points (I wanna say at 21ish points) and then go fairly deep into holy or ret allowing you access to some of their upper 20s to 30 point talents. 1.9 moved Holy Shield to the top of the protection tree dropping choices from the other two trees. Depending on your tanking build pre 1.9, this was in a lot of cases a significant change to you threat.

EDIT: don't get me wrong, at the time, the idea was a step in the right direction that eventually really panned out in BC but if you were fully utilizing what little we had for raid tanking, the changes momentarily dropped your threat and survivability. Some good did come out of it. Some protection tree really improved and they moved Consecration to where you could get both it and holy Shield which was nice.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:17 am

I must honestly say I didn't do too much tanking pre-BC, since I switched to Dwarf Holy.Priest, after realizing the sorry state that Paladins were in. (And we needed Fear Ward.)

I did a bit before 1.9, but haven't tried seriously until after the patch hit. I have totally forgotten what the pre 1.9 talent looked like.

My gear was a mix between Scholo Def/MP5 set, Tier 2, Quel serrar, and some ZG dtops.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Arnock » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:26 pm

Worldie wrote:Well on the taunt subject, you should also consider that in Vanilla and TBC, most of the bosses were taunt immune and only very few demanded a tank swap of sort (which often is in game atm just to not have 1 tank fights and doesn't really add any other challenge to fights).
In a world where bosses are almost always taunt immune, having a taunt wasn't really needed.

I liked the flavour of RD though, sadly it was buggy as fuck so I'm sorta glad it's gone.



What kind of bugs? The only time I remember that RD was ever a serious issue was in the four horsemen, because it made clean tank swaps REALLY difficult without a standard, single target taunt.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:48 pm

Anytime the boss would have a ability where he'd target someone else for a second to cast, if you used RD (the common macro first, later the game auto-did that) the ability would fail to land as it'd be casted on the temporary target and go on cd without taunting the boss.

It caused so many troubles (also the fact that you basically needed a macro to use an ability) that Blizzard got eventually convinced to give Paladins Hand of Reckoning.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:06 pm

Thels wrote:I must honestly say I didn't do too much tanking pre-BC, since I switched to Dwarf Holy.Priest, after realizing the sorry state that Paladins were in. (And we needed Fear Ward.)

I did a bit before 1.9, but haven't tried seriously until after the patch hit. I have totally forgotten what the pre 1.9 talent looked like.

My gear was a mix between Scholo Def/MP5 set, Tier 2, Quel serrar, and some ZG dtops.

Ugg...1.9 was such a bitch slap.

Pre 1.9 a lot of pallys were rocking a tri-spec of sorts. Some combination of all of the best talents in each tree, Reckoning (reck bombs!), Holy Shield, Free Crit Heals, Seal of Command, Consecrate. It was actually a fun spec in PVP because you could go with a couple of different options. You could sit back with a big slow 1hander wearing healing gear, healing the crap out of your team, and if a melee class started in on you, you would eventually be able to drop a reck bomb on them while they were eating holy shield charges. You could also do some real burst in a DPS crit build with Command, plus big slow 2hander, plus reckoning. It had similar utility in raids being able to off tank reasonably well, and of course healing as well as any pally could.

The tri spec was common because the top end of our talent trees were of limited use (read terrible), save needing one pally with Blessing of Kings for raids. Blizz wasn't a fan of the tri-spec, having one of the most popular specs not going anywhere near the top of a talent tree kind of defeated the purpose. Sadly their fix wasn't to improve the top end talents, but instead they chose to make those great talents cost more talent points, just so you couldn't get all of them at the same time.

The worst part (for us) was that right towards the end of beta, after pushing us down a spell damage path, they realized that a pally with holy shield and consecrate was suicide (literally) for any rogue, so they nerfed the fuck out of holy shield, totally removing its spell damage coefficient. So after 1.9 it cost like 10 more talent points, did less damage, and would never scale at all.

Caydiem wrote:...under certain easily achieveable conditions and combinations, Holy Shield was devastating with + spell damage applied. Rather than decrease the effectiveness of the base ability and still have the problem later on, they changed it so + spell damage no longer applies to it. I'm aware this is unpopular ... but please understand that we don't make such calls unless they're absolutely necessary. They tested these changes time and again and the results with Holy Shield were unbalanced.
absolutely idiotic...
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:22 pm

Wow, I wasn't aware of that.
Rather than fix the problem, they just went ahead and castrate an ability. JOY.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:54 pm

Well they did add the spell damage back a patch or two later (which just added fuel to the idea that Caydiem's post was utter bullshit), and I think they maybe changed the number of charges or made it cheaper to cast (I can't really remember) but by that point I think a lot of pallys had completely fled the tree.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby jere » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:43 pm

Thels wrote:I have totally forgotten what the pre 1.9 talent looked like.


I found a 1.6 talent tree that should be pretty close to the same (if not exactly) to 1.8 as well.

http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=1604500_2

Prior to being allowed to tank in raids, I spec'd improved Blessing of Salvation because single cast 5 minute blessings sucked. 15 min blessings were awesome! I also spec'ed Sanctitiy Aura at one point, though only paladins and priests cared about that (and not much there either).
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:58 pm

RIP 40/21 <3
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:19 pm

Worldie wrote:RIP 40/21 <3

o.O HAX!
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Teranoid » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:39 pm

Nothing says fun like having tank talents buried 3 tiers into another tree!
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:48 am

jere wrote:
Thels wrote:I have totally forgotten what the pre 1.9 talent looked like.


I found a 1.6 talent tree that should be pretty close to the same (if not exactly) to 1.8 as well.

http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=1604500_2

Prior to being allowed to tank in raids, I spec'd improved Blessing of Salvation because single cast 5 minute blessings sucked. 15 min blessings were awesome! I also spec'ed Sanctitiy Aura at one point, though only paladins and priests cared about that (and not much there either).


Oh wow. I leveled a paladin from day 1 (EU), but I have totally forgotten what the pre-1.9 tier looked like. All I could remember was that we didn't have RF, but SoF, which honestly wasn't a convenient tool, though unlike RF, it must've dealt enough threat.

I'm so looking "Where is this?", "Where is that?" in this tree. Everything feels so wrong. :P As far as I can remember, Consecration was 11 points into Holy. :P The only thing I do remember from this build is BoK being deep into retri, because the other paladins would fight over who would use the 20/0/31 spec for that month.



I remember Sanctity Aura from TBC, where it gave the 6% healing received, so we had in our MT group:
- Prot Warrior - Battle Shout
- Prot Warrior - Commanding Shout
- Prot Paladin - Sanctity Aura
- Holy Paladin - Devotion Aura
- Warlock - Imp
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fetzie » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:04 am

So a dedicated paladin tank in those days would have specced something like this:

http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=1604 ... 0500501100

Man, talents were pretty bad back then weren't they?
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:47 am

Thels wrote:I remember Sanctity Aura from TBC, where it gave the 6% healing received, so we had in our MT group:
- Prot Warrior - Battle Shout
- Prot Warrior - Commanding Shout
- Prot Paladin - Sanctity Aura
- Holy Paladin - Devotion Aura
- Warlock - Imp

You remember wrong. Improved Sanctity Aura gave 3% damage done. It was improved devotion aura that gave 6% healing received and only when WotLK hit and SA got removed.
Non Improved Sanctity aura gave nothing to any non prot/ret pala.

I said RIP 40/21 as I was back then the big promoter of the non-Avenger Shield build without Ardent Defender and probably the only one who dared progression tank Brutallus with it. Doing 800 DPS as tank on Brutallus was fun though and a huge help to beat the Enrage.
Before the revamp of Combat Expertise (added stamina), I used to run 38/23 actually.

Talent calcs here: http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=2438606_2

Old glorious SA spec before Combat Expertise revamp: http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=2438 ... 003003012h
And 40/21 after: http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=2438 ... 000300301i
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:59 am

And I forgot, the "standard" prot pala build
http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=2438 ... 155150135r

1 point in Improved Judgement cause it would have messed up the rotation with 8 :P
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:39 am

http://www.wowwiki.com/Sanctity_Aura

It actually was that way early in TBC, but got eventually Axed.

I think we still kept that format, because I really wanted that 10% threat buff, and the other paladin and warlock stayed there to buff the tanks.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:13 am

Worldie wrote:I said RIP 40/21 as I was back then the big promoter of the non-Avenger Shield build without Ardent Defender and probably the only one who dared progression tank Brutallus with it.


There were a few people who prog tanked Brutallus as 40/21; you were just the loudest advocate :lol:

I remember doing all kinds of bizarre shit, like stripping naked just before the pull so replenishing mana bar would generate some extra threat, and toggling RF to dump mana for more regen threat.

I remember farming stacks of Bloodthistle and Destruction Potions for this.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:55 am

Gonna miss things like this
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:39 am

Thels wrote:
jere wrote:EDIT:
I realize a lot of you guys/gals didn't tank pre BC (very few paladins did...All I can remember off hand was Sabin and myself), so you may not have any experience of how bad it is really was (especially the paladin tank sundering of 1.9). BC was a huge breath of fresh air for anyone that was tanking in Vanilla, even with all the incompleteness and warrior=main tank design. I'm sure Sabin and I could drum up some old man stories for ya though (I.E. "back in my day, we didn't have no stinking taunts. we had to use pure threat to grab aggro and we had to work hard for it!")


Tank sundering of 1.9? Wasn't 1.9 a good thing? It gave us Righteous Fury.

Before that, we had to work with Seal of Fury, which meant we couldn't use another Seal, and/or Judgement of Fury, which meant that any ret paladins would get lots of aggro. And while ret paladins were in just as bad a spot as prot paladins, you kinda needed to bring one along for Judgement of Wisdom, or you'd go OOM in no time.

Righteous Fury made tanking feel like a breeze compared to before that.


Well SoF + JoF + R1 Consecrate was pretty good threat... on the Molten Core tier. Past that it couldn't keep up and didn't scale. Ret Paladins grabbing aggro? Lol whatever. Ret Paladins didn't do damage in those days, it was the Rogues and Warriors and Mages you had to be afraid of. The real problem was when you ran out of mana and couldn't get enough of it back with SoW while also keeping up aggro generation.

Righteous Fury was certainly a better idea, but we still didn't have good ways to scale our damage in 1.9. Paladin gear outside Tier 2/2.5 didn't do anything for us, and wearing full Tier 2 was essentially ignoring survivability. Warriors on the other hand got to both scale their threat and get gear with defense/avoidance/armor on it. ALSO I'd like to point out that Paladins, back before they normalized this, had one of the lowest base health values in the game, I think just above cloth casters.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:25 pm

So, any more arguments on why we shouldn't demonize Tigole?
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:33 pm

Not from me. Fuck Warriors and fuck Tigole.
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