Remove Advertisements

Ghostcrawler Quits!

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:08 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I think I had 5 seperate buttons all with /cast Judgment /cast Seal of... Since Judgment was off GCD and removed your seal.


That's pretty much why I had that macro. I remember reading an article or a post about seal twisting which is why I had that macro do the seal/judge twisting for me. save me space =P
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11026
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:39 pm

Darielle wrote:GC's "transparency" wasn't even really so much about transparency as it was an experiment they were conducting. They decided it didn't work, and he was promptly gone. I doubt it was even his decision/choice.


This is not accurate. GC was actually the one who pushed for that openness and level of communication, which is why he was the one who ended up being the mouthpiece instead of just relaying things through Community managers.

I also think your characterization of his comments is a bit unfair, most of what he said made a lot of sense. It's easy to cherry-pick comments you disagree with and claim they're nonsensical. It's far more difficult to actually think about the game as a designer would, but when you do, many of their choices make sense.

It's not like I haven't had my fair share of criticisms about their design decisions. Vengeance (which is being changed in WoD, finally) chief among them. But even though I've pointed out the flaws in Vengeance all along, I have to grudgingly admit that it was well-aligned with the design decisions that were being made behind the scenes. The times when it didn't feel good as a player are what stick out, but there's a multitude of reasons that it stuck around that go mostly unnoticed by players.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7718
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:46 pm

I should also add that if you think the communication discussion is limited to his forum posts about design decisions, you're missing a lot of the story and aren't really in a good position to make a judgment on it one way or another. His push for more open communication may have started with just him, but ended up changing the culture of Blizzard fairly noticeably. And that ended up causing similar changes at other major studios. Game devs all over the world have never been as communicative with their players as they are today, and GC is indirectly responsible for a lot of that.

He also made a lot more information available to theorycrafters, especially when it comes to details on formulas and constants. He has done far more for theorycrafting than any other dev has, ever. And not just with his forum posts.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7718
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:31 pm

theckhd wrote:He also made a lot more information available to theorycrafters, especially when it comes to details on formulas and constants. He has done far more for theorycrafting than any other dev has, ever. And not just with his forum posts.

This is very important. If you played back then, you might remind that back in WotLK there were no informations in game or on forums about how much damage/healing spells did, all we got were guesses based on logs and calculations. It was only near Cataclysm (and Ghostcrawler started communicative things at that point) that we finally got formulas in the game files, finally ending in the dungeon Journal in MoP that actually already tells you the mechanics of fights before you even see them in game.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13306
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:44 pm

I second all of what Theck said
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11026
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:59 pm

This is not accurate. GC was actually the one who pushed for that openness and level of communication, which is why he was the one who ended up being the mouthpiece instead of just relaying things through Community managers.

I also think your characterization of his comments is a bit unfair, most of what he said made a lot of sense. It's easy to cherry-pick comments you disagree with and claim they're nonsensical. It's far more difficult to actually think about the game as a designer would, but when you do, many of their choices make sense.


Yes and no.

It really depends on who they were responding to at the time - things in General about relatively simplistic stuff made sense. No one can really take away how much better things like Active Mitigation, or switching to Holy Power, etc., are, and usually when they were talking about these systems, they had to talk on a very broad level to players that were basically on the level of "Change is bad".

When they made the announcements, Dev Watercoolers and what not - the recent trend of "We did this change because we felt this", some of it, particularly things along those lines, made some sense. A lot of it, even from a design point of view, "make sense" if you didn't think about it, or didn't know much about the subject matter, but if you do big holes cropped up immediately. Hunters and Rogues have had lovely experiences with absolute pants-on-head design decisions, and the fact that explanations were lengthier and more detailed than in the past hasn't really helped them. Watcher's the same way to some extent - especially when he has to deal with a tough question where an answer isn't really going to be helpful to people. His departure won't change much of what they do going forward, either.

I imagine Lore's going to find himself in that kind of position more and more. When he had to explain the 5.4 Combat changes to Combat, I'm sure that triggered several facedesks.

None of this is saying that GC was bad, or anything of that sort. But similar to how he gets a lot of flak for things, there's a bit of exaggeration in the impact he's had (especially on Paladins).

I should also add that if you think the communication discussion is limited to his forum posts about design decisions, you're missing a lot of the story and aren't really in a good position to make a judgment on it one way or another. His push for more open communication may have started with just him, but ended up changing the culture of Blizzard fairly noticeably. And that ended up causing similar changes at other major studios. Game devs all over the world have never been as communicative with their players as they are today, and GC is indirectly responsible for a lot of that.

He also made a lot more information available to theorycrafters, especially when it comes to details on formulas and constants. He has done far more for theorycrafting than any other dev has, ever. And not just with his forum posts.


Mmmm, GC (and Blizzard) actually mostly piggybacked off a movement in gaming culture that dates back into the late 90's/early 2000's - even into mod culture. Even Blizzard's more open communication didn't start with just him - it dates back to 2006'ish. Not sure if you played a Priest at the time, but there were some intense discussions happening.

Not that that's a bad thing, and I'm sure a lot of companies strove to emulate it because of the success that Blizzard had with it. But even comparing what GC actually communicated (or theorycrafted) vs. the level of communication and theorycrafting the developers of Rift have is miles apart (in favour of Rift) entirely.
Darielle
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:45 pm

Darielle wrote:None of this is saying that GC was bad, or anything of that sort. But similar to how he gets a lot of flak for things, there's a bit of exaggeration in the impact he's had (especially on Paladins).

You are vastly underestimating the amount of influence he has had, and more specifically, given the community, especially with respect to Paladins.

Darielle wrote:But even comparing what GC actually communicated (or theorycrafted) vs. the level of communication and theorycrafting the developers of Rift have is miles apart (in favour of Rift) entirely.

Again, I think you're making that judgment based off of a very limited and incomplete sample: the official forums.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7718
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:02 pm

You are vastly underestimating the amount of influence he has had, and more specifically, given the community, especially with respect to Paladins.
Again, I think you're making that judgment based off of a very limited and incomplete sample: the official forums.


I am very specifically including more than just the official forums.

Paladins in particular have been pretty weird when it comes to how they perceive him. Even now if you're a non-Prot-Paladin, or if we wind the clock back to 2010/2011, half the people in this community alone were railing against him. Tanks got the most favourable end of the perception deal, purely because of how things were when the game first started.
Darielle
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:45 pm

Image

Please, go on. I am enjoying this very much.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11026
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:49 pm

Darielle wrote:
You are vastly underestimating the amount of influence he has had, and more specifically, given the community, especially with respect to Paladins.
Again, I think you're making that judgment based off of a very limited and incomplete sample: the official forums.


I am very specifically including more than just the official forums.

Paladins in particular have been pretty weird when it comes to how they perceive him. Even now if you're a non-Prot-Paladin, or if we wind the clock back to 2010/2011, half the people in this community alone were railing against him. Tanks got the most favourable end of the perception deal, purely because of how things were when the game first started.

The only time I remember this community being against him, was when he was talking about niche tanking, and didn't seem to believe that the mitigation difference we had detected in WotLK beta, was significant enough to relegate us to off/AOE tanking for another expansion. When he informed us that was not the intent, and then they backed that up with added mitigation, the pendulum swung and never really returned. Not that we always agreed with him (far from it), but at that point he had earned some trust, something no Mod had before that with this community.

Which actually brings me to my other point. Whether or not you agree with the changes that he explained, unless you think he was lying or purposely being deceitful, then he was being transparent. Certainly he didn't go into everything in great detail, but he did cover a lot of topics and this was leaps and bounds more transparent than anything we had before, and I think it was ultimately incredibly beneficial for the game.

For the most part though, this conversation is really a matter of opinion, its likely time we just agree to disagree.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:28 pm

Fridmarr wrote:The only time I remember this community being against him, was when he was talking about niche tanking, and didn't seem to believe that the mitigation difference we had detected in WotLK beta, was significant enough to relegate us to off/AOE tanking for another expansion. When he informed us that was not the intent, and then they backed that up with added mitigation, the pendulum swung and never really returned. Not that we always agreed with him (far from it), but at that point he had earned some trust, something no Mod had before that with this community.


Ah I remember those times on the WoTLK Beta forums, posting in discussions with GC. Those were the days.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10470
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby econ21 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:00 am

I really admire GCs ability to communicate and the intelligent way he discussed game design, so I'm sad he's going.

But my pet peeve with him was his animosity to tanks in pvp. Here's the latest:

MMO Champion wrote:Q: So we will see the return of tanks in pvp? Great.
A: That's not the intention. Tanks in PvP aren't much fun for everyone else, except possibly as FCs.


One can only hope that stance leaves with him.
econ21
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:53 am

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:19 am

I disagree and think he was right.

Back when tanks were viable in PvP, you had people with stupidly high HP / resistance / self heals, and at same time providing very high dps, making them essentially killing machines in defensive roles like flag carrying or holding bases.

Allowing tank specs to be viable in PvP would return to that, and I don't know what's really fun in needing 10 people to kill a Prot Pala. Back in Cata, before vengeance nerf, I could on my tank take the flag, walk my way to the base team with 5 people bashing on me and still not give a fuck.

It's surely fun for the person playing it, but for everyone on the opposing team, not really.


I'm glad Tanks are not viable in PvP, they never should be.

The only (maybe) balanced way to make tanks viable in PvP without completely destroying bgs would be making Taunt work on people. Imagine something like LoL, you taunt a person and he's forced to autoattack / move toward you for 3 seconds.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13306
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Shamora » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:05 am

I kinda liked the way SWTOR handled taunts in PVP. I don't remember the numbers, but if you got taunted you did x% less damage to any other target than tank that taunted you for the duration of the taunt.
Hearthstone Arena Stats
Server: PVP US Warsong, Horde - <Orbit>
Main: Keondra, Delver of the Vaults, Lvl 90 Assassination Rogue
User avatar
Shamora
 
Posts: 1441
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:10 am
Location: In your Imagination

Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Teranoid » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:30 am

Worldie wrote:Allowing tank specs to be viable in PvP would return to that, and I don't know what's really fun in needing 10 people to kill a Prot Pala. Back in Cata, before vengeance nerf, I could on my tank take the flag, walk my way to the base team with 5 people bashing on me and still not give a fuck.

It's surely fun for the person playing it, but for everyone on the opposing team, not really.


Oh so you mean just like healers in pvp are now?
User avatar
Teranoid
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:56 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest