Ghostcrawler Quits!

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Lieris » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:47 pm

I do a fair bit of holy damage as ret. Whether that holy damage is coming from mastery or an attack power to spell damage conversion as in the past I don't think it really matters.

I don't think having a holy damage stat instead of getting it indirectly from other stats really changes anything. I feel that class flavour should come from play mechanics rather than stats on gear. I'd sooner ask for librams back than ret/prot int+sd gear.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:36 pm

There's a lot of odd fondness for GC and Kaplan rage that gets overblown. GC wasn't really some champion for equality or some such, and the improvement of Paladins wasn't some spearheaded move that had to do with Kaplan losing the reins and GC taking over; it was just a natural evolvement of the game.

Vanilla had a lot of ideas that simply didn't really go anywhere. They didn't really have an idea for what to do with Druids at ALL, many specs were complete jokes or had no focus (Survival, Discipline etc.), and so on. BC improved a little bit on that, but with Wrath they had to make a concentrated effort not because of the reasons people seem to think; it has to do with the rise of the 10/25 paradigm. Hybrids had to be big, and had to be equal for that kind of system to do anything meaningful, and this went not just for Tanking. Tigole wasn't some force keeping the hybrids down, as much as people like to believe that.

GC himself talked a fair bit, but a lot of what he talked was nonsense. It's not like he somehow receptively took in things like Tank Cooldowns or even acknowledged why Righteous Defense needed to be an actual taunt, he really didn't understand Shadow at all, entire arguments about Representation and all that started, and extremely basic things were routinely missed and then happened to crop out later. Ignoring 102.4% in Cataclysm, Death Knights being screwed because of flavour, all of that fun stuff.

The fact that he communicated did mean that he occasionally managed to catch on to something good. The thread about Tank Cooldowns was probably the highlight of Blizz-Player interaction because it got Tank Cooldowns to some semblance of normality which was great for the game.

By and large, most of what he "communicated" was some form of "We think this because of stupid reason", or "This is what we decided, and we don't see an issue coming up" followed by "Oops". It may have been better than nothing, but it was hardly something amazing. Most of the "good" things that happened to Paladins would have likely happened even without GC at the helm, and probably even without communication.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Lieris » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:37 pm

GC wasn't perfect but he was a hell of a lot better than his predecessor.

The Tigole "rage" isn't misplaced, he was along with his partner in crime, very vocal with his opinions on hybrids and this was reflected in-game.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.1.0

Ultimately the proof is in the pudding. GC succeeded in making every spec raid viable. He put himself out there and interacted with the community and while he was occasionally quite slow (sometimes even obtuse) to recognise certain things, he would come good more often than not and wasn't afraid to say "we messed up" or "okay you convinced me". I am appreciative because of what came before and what a mess the game's balance used to be, the awful way paying customers were treated if they didn't play the right class/spec and the glacial pace at which balance changes were made. Even if I disagree with a lot of what he has said regarding the raiding game and his defence of the daily quest hell MOP was, classes are better balanced, have a higher skill cap than before and are more fun to play now and a lot of that must be down to him.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:03 pm

I don't know Darielle, there was a pretty spirited back and forth with GC during the WotLK beta, when they finally relented on the notion of niche tanks, and at that point warriors were still going to be the tank with the niche of tanking the hardest hitting bosses. It was fairly late in the beta as well. Internally they may have made that change long prior, but up until that sort of last set of talent changes, we were going to be AOE tanking in Wrath, again.

That said, I highly doubt that GC's comments were all his personal ideas, I'm sure he was often relaying information that was discussed amongst their team and decided as a group, which may have had the same result regardless of who was the mouthpiece on the forums.

I care a bit less about the specific implementations, because a precise balance is pretty difficult with scaling and all the different mechanics, but the intent was to finally put hybrids on equal footing, and that's what mattered. Up until GC there was pretty much zero transparency (probably because they knew they had a terrible message). I remember when we asked about whether our intent was to be viable end game tanks in TBC and the cryptic answer ("whatever your role may be").

I still think GC opening up communications was terrific and quite beneficial for the game as a whole, there was none of that cryptic class role crap anymore.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:40 pm

I told my friend that GC had quit and his response ultimately boiled down to... "who?"

He played from at least the start of classic (might have beta'd, but I don't think he did) until a few months before MoP came out...granted, he's been a druid since launch (technically resto, but that's a loose name for his original spec XD), so maybe he just hasn't had as much interaction character-wise...
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:22 am

GC's made the point himself recently that he was more directly involved in systems and UI than class design and balance. He just made it a personal goal when joining Blizzard to open up communication so people could understand why they were making the decisions they were.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:58 am

Skye1013 wrote:I told my friend that GC had quit and his response ultimately boiled down to... "who?"

He played from at least the start of classic (might have beta'd, but I don't think he did) until a few months before MoP came out...granted, he's been a druid since launch (technically resto, but that's a loose name for his original spec XD), so maybe he just hasn't had as much interaction character-wise...

Well, if a player isn't involved in forum stuff, he likely has no idea of any of the developer or blue's names, doesn't matter if he plays since vanilla or bought the game yesterday :)
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:05 am

The Tigole "rage" isn't misplaced, he was along with his partner in crime, very vocal with his opinions on hybrids and this was reflected in-game.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.1.0


The thing is, Tigole's area of influence wasn't nearly as strong as people make it out to be. Alex, for example, was involved with Quest/Content design, not classes. Their opinions had nothing to do with "the state of Hybrids" (which in this case, really means "Tanking Hybrids", because once you go out of that sphere the idea of hybrids being kept down never held up)

I don't know Darielle, there was a pretty spirited back and forth with GC during the WotLK beta, when they finally relented on the notion of niche tanks, and at that point warriors were still going to be the tank with the niche of tanking the hardest hitting bosses. It was fairly late in the beta as well. Internally they may have made that change long prior, but up until that sort of last set of talent changes, we were going to be AOE tanking in Wrath, again

That said, I highly doubt that GC's comments were all his personal ideas, I'm sure he was often relaying information that was discussed amongst their team and decided as a group, which may have had the same result regardless of who was the mouthpiece on the forums.

I care a bit less about the specific implementations, because a precise balance is pretty difficult with scaling and all the different mechanics, but the intent was to finally put hybrids on equal footing, and that's what mattered. Up until GC there was pretty much zero transparency (probably because they knew they had a terrible message). I remember when we asked about whether our intent was to be viable end game tanks in TBC and the cryptic answer ("whatever your role may be").

I still think GC opening up communications was terrific and quite beneficial for the game as a whole, there was none of that cryptic class role crap anymore.


IIRC, that back and forth was more about discussions of their past philosophy, because late in the Beta we were more arguing over whether Paladins needed 3% more dr or not (and then GC conveniently mentioned that Shield of the Templar or whatever that talent was had 3% in the internal builds and we just hadn't been seeing it so far).

GC's "transparency" wasn't even really so much about transparency as it was an experiment they were conducting. They decided it didn't work, and he was promptly gone. I doubt it was even his decision/choice.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:05 am

The Tigole "rage" isn't misplaced, he was along with his partner in crime, very vocal with his opinions on hybrids and this was reflected in-game.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.1.0


The thing is, Tigole's area of influence wasn't nearly as strong as people make it out to be. Alex, for example, was involved with Quest/Content design, not classes. Their opinions had nothing to do with "the state of Hybrids" (which in this case, really means "Tanking Hybrids", because once you go out of that sphere the idea of hybrids being kept down never held up)

I mentioned Druids for a reason. Blizzard at the time genuinely believed in that Jack of All Trades, Master of None concept, and why not? THey didn't even know they were going to make raiding the thing it eventually became.

I don't know Darielle, there was a pretty spirited back and forth with GC during the WotLK beta, when they finally relented on the notion of niche tanks, and at that point warriors were still going to be the tank with the niche of tanking the hardest hitting bosses. It was fairly late in the beta as well. Internally they may have made that change long prior, but up until that sort of last set of talent changes, we were going to be AOE tanking in Wrath, again

That said, I highly doubt that GC's comments were all his personal ideas, I'm sure he was often relaying information that was discussed amongst their team and decided as a group, which may have had the same result regardless of who was the mouthpiece on the forums.

I care a bit less about the specific implementations, because a precise balance is pretty difficult with scaling and all the different mechanics, but the intent was to finally put hybrids on equal footing, and that's what mattered. Up until GC there was pretty much zero transparency (probably because they knew they had a terrible message). I remember when we asked about whether our intent was to be viable end game tanks in TBC and the cryptic answer ("whatever your role may be").

I still think GC opening up communications was terrific and quite beneficial for the game as a whole, there was none of that cryptic class role crap anymore.


IIRC, that back and forth was more about discussions of their past philosophy, because late in the Beta we were more arguing over whether Paladins needed 3% more dr or not (and then GC conveniently mentioned that Shield of the Templar or whatever that talent was had 3% in the internal builds and we just hadn't been seeing it so far). Pretty much by around mid, they'd committed to everyone tanking everything, and they were spending a lot of time on DK's and were convinced they had everything ironed down.

GC's "transparency" wasn't even really so much about transparency as it was an experiment they were conducting. They decided it didn't work, and he was promptly gone. I doubt it was even his decision/choice.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby jere » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:31 pm

Regardless of your stance on Tigole, you can't forget:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8W24vacZys

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:50 pm

heh, that never gets old.

The conversation mid beta (late beta really) wasn't about past design decisions, niche tanking roles were being defended even then. That final 3% amounted to them finally making good on the decision to get rid of it.

The transparency persisted all through WotLK (I have no clue after that), not at levels it was at in Beta, but that's an entirely different beast anyhow. There was finally some insight into design choices including addressing common feedback. That helped establish a level of trust in the raiding hybrid that was missing through TBC.

I don't necessarily credit GC personally for all of that, again those sorts of decisions are not likely made unilaterally and certainly may have come about regardless. GC though, had the patience and fortitude to continue communicating with the players efficiently for some time, and that was important. From my perspective, he handled a pretty difficult and thankless task, rather well.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:34 pm

The conversation mid beta (late beta really) wasn't about past design decisions, niche tanking roles were being defended even then. That final 3% amounted to them finally making good on the decision to get rid of it.

The transparency persisted all through WotLK (I have no clue after that), not at levels it was at in Beta, but that's an entirely different beast anyhow. There was finally some insight into design choices including addressing common feedback. That helped establish a level of trust in the raiding hybrid that was missing through TBC.


Oh, they were always being defended, but there was never anything about how they wanted to go forward with them. They were convinced that what they had was fine, and differences were like, totally flavour yo, and then we had to convince them that these passives were pretty key to being taken seriously. Part of the argument we could muster of course was that some problems were Paladin specific and Druids didn't haev them.

I don't know that I'd say the transparency persisted through LK. There was a LOT of double talk and hidden stuff going on, especially in Ulduar, with Death Knights and so on. They basically had a better medium to tell people to deal with it more often. That people were wrong, a real taunt wasn't necessary and we liked the flavour of RD, we didn't need a second cooldown, blah blah.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby jere » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:49 am

I never got the vibe that they were convinced they were right or that we had to convince them of anything. They were making a lot of those changes and they were using data collection to verify whether or not those changes were good or not, which takes time, and a small group of players (maintankadin has always been "small" in comparison to everyone playing) saying everything is wrong isn't enough to put on the brakes and make more changes without seeing how the data fell. As confident as I was with what we felt back then was the right way to go, I understood that me saying it or all of us saying it wasn't enough evidence that it was the right path. I think they made changes when they themselves determined it was the right thing. I'm sure some of our comments helped steer the analysis to look at specific items, but in the end I think they went with what their process indicated to them.

I've also never gotten the vibe that GC was lying directly to us. He rarely ever committed to any anything as 100% final (which is good). I think we as a player base read into his answers and were disappointed when they weren't what we wanted or expected. Even in Ulduar times, I would have challenged you to find a single post by him that said Death Knights are fine. At most, he would have said that his data at the time indicated that other tanks were being used a lot on heroic progression and so they haven't seen an issue yet. Those aren't the same statements.


EDIT:
I realize a lot of you guys/gals didn't tank pre BC (very few paladins did...All I can remember off hand was Sabin and myself), so you may not have any experience of how bad it is really was (especially the paladin tank sundering of 1.9). BC was a huge breath of fresh air for anyone that was tanking in Vanilla, even with all the incompleteness and warrior=main tank design. I'm sure Sabin and I could drum up some old man stories for ya though (I.E. "back in my day, we didn't have no stinking taunts. we had to use pure threat to grab aggro and we had to work hard for it!")
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:16 am

I remember having a macro that would do the seal twist and the judgement twisting for me back in bc =P

cast seal
cast judgment
cast other seal
cast other judgement

rinse and repeat =P
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:01 am

I think I had 5 seperate buttons all with /cast Judgment /cast Seal of... Since Judgment was off GCD and removed your seal.
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