Ghostcrawler Quits!

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Cema » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:42 am

I never liked him. While he did some good he also did some terrible stuff.

He really transformed the game from a place where I had a far distant goal in pve that looked like a dream, a place where all guilds could progress at their own pace without shame ... into a kind of factory where everybody in the game was doing the same stuff mindlessly every 6 months.

I agree that he was really talkative compared to Tigole but at the same time he was full of contradictions. Every 6 month or so he turned his coat, about difficulty of dungeons, about threat, about vengeance ...

Good riddance, even if the next one has a lot of chance to be the same or worse. I don't really mind since I don't play anymore :)

ps : also it makes me remember this old video about kaplan and the designer team ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8W24vacZys
Last edited by Cema on Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:17 am

Io.Draco wrote:I see, well what an asshole.


I mean, just look at the tier bonuses from T1 thru T3 and you'll see what I'm talking about.

It wasn't until BC that we could properly tank, but only cuz people found a way to jerryrig things... We had to go about and get SP gear and Int gear and whatnot, while at the same time trying to keep our 490 defense rating. In some cases, we could do that by mixing resilience gear in lieu of defense gear.

Cema wrote:I never liked him. While he did some good he also did some terrible stuff.

That's incredibly unfair IMO. It is thanks to him that paladins got a shot at being viable tanks in the first place.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Cema » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:27 am

And that's why I said he did some good. I see no problem here =)
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:36 am

Klaudandus wrote:It wasn't until BC that we could properly tank, but only cuz people found a way to jerryrig things... We had to go about and get SP gear and Int gear and whatnot, while at the same time trying to keep our 490 defense rating. In some cases, we could do that by mixing resilience gear in lieu of defense gear.

I, for one, liked the +spell damage on gear. And even with defense rating, it was fun balancing things. Made me feel unique. I'm sure plenty of people felt it was tedious, but I really liked that it WAS tedious.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fetzie » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:44 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:I see, well what an asshole.


I mean, just look at the tier bonuses from T1 thru T3 and you'll see what I'm talking about.

It wasn't until BC that we could properly tank, but only cuz people found a way to jerryrig things... We had to go about and get SP gear and Int gear and whatnot, while at the same time trying to keep our 490 defense rating. In some cases, we could do that by mixing resilience gear in lieu of defense gear.


and pissing off all of the warlocks and mages in the raid when you rolled on the Leviathan's Fang or the Blade of Tempests :)
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Sagara » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:45 am

Well, I think the problem was more the mechanics we had no counter against, like Fears, that basically made Warrior a necessity in any given raid team.
There was ALWAYS a spot for a warrior tank in a given raid. Unless you were busy in MH, not so much for us (and even then, Druids were decent as well).

The rest of the system was good, if a bit counter-intuitive at times. I guess Defense and spell damage went out the window because a) it's dumb to penalize a player for having more of a stat, without him being clearly aware of it (Defense); and b) gearing shenanigans that made Tank weapons Warrior-only (see the soon-ending headache of Intelect Plate).
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Cema » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:52 am

I never felt that gearing during BC was so hard. Yes, our way of gearing was really curious but at the same time it gave me the feeling my character was pretty unique. In fact while it was a mess it was still quite fun.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:55 am

Sagara wrote:Well, I think the problem was more the mechanics we had no counter against, like Fears, that basically made Warrior a necessity in any given raid team.
There was ALWAYS a spot for a warrior tank in a given raid. Unless you were busy in MH, not so much for us (and even then, Druids were decent as well).

The rest of the system was good, if a bit counter-intuitive at times. I guess Defense and spell damage went out the window because a) it's dumb to penalize a player for having more of a stat, without him being clearly aware of it (Defense); and b) gearing shenanigans that made Tank weapons Warrior-only (see the soon-ending headache of Intelect Plate).


You know that it was more than that. In vanilla, paladins were glorified buff machines. Might as well give us a banjo or a guitar and call us a bard.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:56 am

Counterpoint:
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Io.Draco » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:58 am

I personally have mixed feelings about BC gearing, although we were unique it was fucking annoying how our tier pieces until tier 6 were horrible compared to off-set pieces for survivability but the only way to increase threat outside of a weapon/spell caster shield.

I also have to say that I absolutely hated, nay loathed with a fucking passion that piece of shit lollipop from MH. I also loathed how I had to wear that horrible looking ZA badge gear for MONTHS in tier 6 because my guild was unlucky as hell with tier drops.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Cema » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:16 am

I just wish they created transmog before :(

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Sagara » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:54 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Well, I think the problem was more the mechanics we had no counter against, like Fears, that basically made Warrior a necessity in any given raid team.
There was ALWAYS a spot for a warrior tank in a given raid. Unless you were busy in MH, not so much for us (and even then, Druids were decent as well).

The rest of the system was good, if a bit counter-intuitive at times. I guess Defense and spell damage went out the window because a) it's dumb to penalize a player for having more of a stat, without him being clearly aware of it (Defense); and b) gearing shenanigans that made Tank weapons Warrior-only (see the soon-ending headache of Intelect Plate).


You know that it was more than that. In vanilla, paladins were glorified buff machines. Might as well give us a banjo or a guitar and call us a bard.


Yeah, I was mostly expanding why people complained in BC, DESPITE us growing out of the biff machine paradigm.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Passionario » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:58 am

Oh no.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Lieris » Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:21 pm

I really hope they did everything to keep him, he was one of the best things to ever happen to the game.

Tigole's crappy class design and childish hybrid hate is the reason paladins went from having 2 on demand melee abilities to having 0 once the game went live. GC was a total revelation.

I think that TBC gearing was pretty terrible. Spell damage on gear was nice as a flavour stat but it was the reason warriors had 5%+ more avoidance than we did, we had less drops (one set of boots/belt/bracers per tier), we had to fight with casters for a weapon and the scaling on it sucked. The WOTLK paladin redesign was a bit of a hack job rather than the overhaul it needed but the patch notes read like a paladin forum wishlist from 2005-8.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:19 pm

I'm divided on the spellpower thing.

I did like in TBC our uniqueness of being melee stacking SP, but in the end, Int plate were a nonsense already, and adding Int + defense gear was even more a nonsense as 1 spec/class out of a million could use them. (random thing, I'd like a second ranged phisical class in the game, as ranged weapons now are the only item type used only by 1 class)

With the primary stat and defensive stat gone from gear, I'd like Prot (and maybe ret) to be based around spell damage scaling again, just to differentiate them from other melee classes. In the end atm just a couple flashy lights (Judgement and Exorcism essentially) distinguishes a Ret paladin from a Arms warrior or a DK.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Lieris » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:47 pm

I do a fair bit of holy damage as ret. Whether that holy damage is coming from mastery or an attack power to spell damage conversion as in the past I don't think it really matters.

I don't think having a holy damage stat instead of getting it indirectly from other stats really changes anything. I feel that class flavour should come from play mechanics rather than stats on gear. I'd sooner ask for librams back than ret/prot int+sd gear.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:36 pm

There's a lot of odd fondness for GC and Kaplan rage that gets overblown. GC wasn't really some champion for equality or some such, and the improvement of Paladins wasn't some spearheaded move that had to do with Kaplan losing the reins and GC taking over; it was just a natural evolvement of the game.

Vanilla had a lot of ideas that simply didn't really go anywhere. They didn't really have an idea for what to do with Druids at ALL, many specs were complete jokes or had no focus (Survival, Discipline etc.), and so on. BC improved a little bit on that, but with Wrath they had to make a concentrated effort not because of the reasons people seem to think; it has to do with the rise of the 10/25 paradigm. Hybrids had to be big, and had to be equal for that kind of system to do anything meaningful, and this went not just for Tanking. Tigole wasn't some force keeping the hybrids down, as much as people like to believe that.

GC himself talked a fair bit, but a lot of what he talked was nonsense. It's not like he somehow receptively took in things like Tank Cooldowns or even acknowledged why Righteous Defense needed to be an actual taunt, he really didn't understand Shadow at all, entire arguments about Representation and all that started, and extremely basic things were routinely missed and then happened to crop out later. Ignoring 102.4% in Cataclysm, Death Knights being screwed because of flavour, all of that fun stuff.

The fact that he communicated did mean that he occasionally managed to catch on to something good. The thread about Tank Cooldowns was probably the highlight of Blizz-Player interaction because it got Tank Cooldowns to some semblance of normality which was great for the game.

By and large, most of what he "communicated" was some form of "We think this because of stupid reason", or "This is what we decided, and we don't see an issue coming up" followed by "Oops". It may have been better than nothing, but it was hardly something amazing. Most of the "good" things that happened to Paladins would have likely happened even without GC at the helm, and probably even without communication.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Lieris » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:37 pm

GC wasn't perfect but he was a hell of a lot better than his predecessor.

The Tigole "rage" isn't misplaced, he was along with his partner in crime, very vocal with his opinions on hybrids and this was reflected in-game.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.1.0

Ultimately the proof is in the pudding. GC succeeded in making every spec raid viable. He put himself out there and interacted with the community and while he was occasionally quite slow (sometimes even obtuse) to recognise certain things, he would come good more often than not and wasn't afraid to say "we messed up" or "okay you convinced me". I am appreciative because of what came before and what a mess the game's balance used to be, the awful way paying customers were treated if they didn't play the right class/spec and the glacial pace at which balance changes were made. Even if I disagree with a lot of what he has said regarding the raiding game and his defence of the daily quest hell MOP was, classes are better balanced, have a higher skill cap than before and are more fun to play now and a lot of that must be down to him.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:03 pm

I don't know Darielle, there was a pretty spirited back and forth with GC during the WotLK beta, when they finally relented on the notion of niche tanks, and at that point warriors were still going to be the tank with the niche of tanking the hardest hitting bosses. It was fairly late in the beta as well. Internally they may have made that change long prior, but up until that sort of last set of talent changes, we were going to be AOE tanking in Wrath, again.

That said, I highly doubt that GC's comments were all his personal ideas, I'm sure he was often relaying information that was discussed amongst their team and decided as a group, which may have had the same result regardless of who was the mouthpiece on the forums.

I care a bit less about the specific implementations, because a precise balance is pretty difficult with scaling and all the different mechanics, but the intent was to finally put hybrids on equal footing, and that's what mattered. Up until GC there was pretty much zero transparency (probably because they knew they had a terrible message). I remember when we asked about whether our intent was to be viable end game tanks in TBC and the cryptic answer ("whatever your role may be").

I still think GC opening up communications was terrific and quite beneficial for the game as a whole, there was none of that cryptic class role crap anymore.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:40 pm

I told my friend that GC had quit and his response ultimately boiled down to... "who?"

He played from at least the start of classic (might have beta'd, but I don't think he did) until a few months before MoP came out...granted, he's been a druid since launch (technically resto, but that's a loose name for his original spec XD), so maybe he just hasn't had as much interaction character-wise...
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:22 am

GC's made the point himself recently that he was more directly involved in systems and UI than class design and balance. He just made it a personal goal when joining Blizzard to open up communication so people could understand why they were making the decisions they were.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:58 am

Skye1013 wrote:I told my friend that GC had quit and his response ultimately boiled down to... "who?"

He played from at least the start of classic (might have beta'd, but I don't think he did) until a few months before MoP came out...granted, he's been a druid since launch (technically resto, but that's a loose name for his original spec XD), so maybe he just hasn't had as much interaction character-wise...

Well, if a player isn't involved in forum stuff, he likely has no idea of any of the developer or blue's names, doesn't matter if he plays since vanilla or bought the game yesterday :)
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:05 am

The Tigole "rage" isn't misplaced, he was along with his partner in crime, very vocal with his opinions on hybrids and this was reflected in-game.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.1.0


The thing is, Tigole's area of influence wasn't nearly as strong as people make it out to be. Alex, for example, was involved with Quest/Content design, not classes. Their opinions had nothing to do with "the state of Hybrids" (which in this case, really means "Tanking Hybrids", because once you go out of that sphere the idea of hybrids being kept down never held up)

I don't know Darielle, there was a pretty spirited back and forth with GC during the WotLK beta, when they finally relented on the notion of niche tanks, and at that point warriors were still going to be the tank with the niche of tanking the hardest hitting bosses. It was fairly late in the beta as well. Internally they may have made that change long prior, but up until that sort of last set of talent changes, we were going to be AOE tanking in Wrath, again

That said, I highly doubt that GC's comments were all his personal ideas, I'm sure he was often relaying information that was discussed amongst their team and decided as a group, which may have had the same result regardless of who was the mouthpiece on the forums.

I care a bit less about the specific implementations, because a precise balance is pretty difficult with scaling and all the different mechanics, but the intent was to finally put hybrids on equal footing, and that's what mattered. Up until GC there was pretty much zero transparency (probably because they knew they had a terrible message). I remember when we asked about whether our intent was to be viable end game tanks in TBC and the cryptic answer ("whatever your role may be").

I still think GC opening up communications was terrific and quite beneficial for the game as a whole, there was none of that cryptic class role crap anymore.


IIRC, that back and forth was more about discussions of their past philosophy, because late in the Beta we were more arguing over whether Paladins needed 3% more dr or not (and then GC conveniently mentioned that Shield of the Templar or whatever that talent was had 3% in the internal builds and we just hadn't been seeing it so far).

GC's "transparency" wasn't even really so much about transparency as it was an experiment they were conducting. They decided it didn't work, and he was promptly gone. I doubt it was even his decision/choice.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:05 am

The Tigole "rage" isn't misplaced, he was along with his partner in crime, very vocal with his opinions on hybrids and this was reflected in-game.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.1.0


The thing is, Tigole's area of influence wasn't nearly as strong as people make it out to be. Alex, for example, was involved with Quest/Content design, not classes. Their opinions had nothing to do with "the state of Hybrids" (which in this case, really means "Tanking Hybrids", because once you go out of that sphere the idea of hybrids being kept down never held up)

I mentioned Druids for a reason. Blizzard at the time genuinely believed in that Jack of All Trades, Master of None concept, and why not? THey didn't even know they were going to make raiding the thing it eventually became.

I don't know Darielle, there was a pretty spirited back and forth with GC during the WotLK beta, when they finally relented on the notion of niche tanks, and at that point warriors were still going to be the tank with the niche of tanking the hardest hitting bosses. It was fairly late in the beta as well. Internally they may have made that change long prior, but up until that sort of last set of talent changes, we were going to be AOE tanking in Wrath, again

That said, I highly doubt that GC's comments were all his personal ideas, I'm sure he was often relaying information that was discussed amongst their team and decided as a group, which may have had the same result regardless of who was the mouthpiece on the forums.

I care a bit less about the specific implementations, because a precise balance is pretty difficult with scaling and all the different mechanics, but the intent was to finally put hybrids on equal footing, and that's what mattered. Up until GC there was pretty much zero transparency (probably because they knew they had a terrible message). I remember when we asked about whether our intent was to be viable end game tanks in TBC and the cryptic answer ("whatever your role may be").

I still think GC opening up communications was terrific and quite beneficial for the game as a whole, there was none of that cryptic class role crap anymore.


IIRC, that back and forth was more about discussions of their past philosophy, because late in the Beta we were more arguing over whether Paladins needed 3% more dr or not (and then GC conveniently mentioned that Shield of the Templar or whatever that talent was had 3% in the internal builds and we just hadn't been seeing it so far). Pretty much by around mid, they'd committed to everyone tanking everything, and they were spending a lot of time on DK's and were convinced they had everything ironed down.

GC's "transparency" wasn't even really so much about transparency as it was an experiment they were conducting. They decided it didn't work, and he was promptly gone. I doubt it was even his decision/choice.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby jere » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:31 pm

Regardless of your stance on Tigole, you can't forget:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8W24vacZys

:)
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