Ghostcrawler Quits!

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:59 am

They are introducing a change to smart heals in WoD (I heard that on Blizzcon, hopefully I didn't dream of it), and that is, smart heals won't anymore prefer the "most injured target" but rather just prefer "injured targets".
So if you just spam chain heal, you might get people RNGd and die if you dont at least do the effort of aiming the CH on the lowest person for example.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:14 pm

Worldie wrote:Reason for the raid cd abudance / stacking is that atm they can't come up with any other way to actually pose a challenge to healers.

If you want that to change, you should first propose a new idea for this subject.


No, that's not the reason. The reason has to do with an escalating race since early Cataclysm where raid cooldowns have been just another cool concept to throw out. Many of them are simply a product of the new Talent Trees. They're not limited to using the raid cooldowns to challenge healers; in fact, people are simply dropping healers because among other things, the raid cooldowns allow for that instead.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:51 pm

Darielle wrote:
Don't get me wrong, in PVE in vanilla WoW, warriors were in a very good place. They could put out high DPS as a fury spec, and in the same spec they were more effective at tanking than a pally spec'd for tanking, just between defensive stance and available gear. In fact, we would declare a boss on farm mode when we downed it while our MT was in his fury spec.


IIRC, it was pretty damn commonplace to use a MS build for everything except the hardest hittign stuff that actually warranted going Deep Prot.


Yeah I only knew one Warrior who tanked in Prot spec back in vanilla, and he was in no way better off for the decision than his Arms/Fury teammates. He in fact was pissed that being Protection gave such a negligible, if any, benefit for his chosen role.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:13 am

If I remember correctly you only really needed 1 prot war in the 40 men raid, and that was to tank actually hard hitters, all other tanks would spec MS/prot.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby jere » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:02 am

I can't speak for 40man naxx, but we never needed a prot warrior for any of the other raids. We finished all the others without any warriors spec'ed prot more than the few talents at the beginning that were "required" for tanking. Most of ours were Arms (and a couple were fury).
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:20 am

There was talent at 11 prot that gave +50% threat or so, it was the only thing most people needed. I went as far as almost full AQ (just cthun we never killed) and 5 Naxx, and I remind we had 1 prot war (the main tank who got all de lewts) and just like 6 arms/prot Fury was a joke iirc.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:56 am

Darielle is completely right about the raid cooldown arms race. It's a bit absurd, and I think it forces encounter designers into corners on some fights. The move to 20-man mythic doesn't really solve that, it will just encourage groups to swap them around to tailor to the fight. For example, bringing a bunch of paladins for Devotion Aura on Thok.

Raid cooldowns are one of the things I'd like to see curbed in WoD as part of the "button bloat" solution.

I'm not sure I agree with him about DoT snapshotting, because I can't actually tell what his stance is. :P I think that it's good that snapshotting is going away for a variety of reasons, but I also respect that highly skilled players will probably miss it. It causes a huge degree of skill differentiation on specs that can take advantage of it (Affliction Warlocks, for example), which is neat for high-end (i.e. Mythic) raiders. The problem is that it makes balancing those classes much more difficult across a wide range of skill levels, which is why it's good that it's going away.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:06 pm

I'm not sure I agree with him about DoT snapshotting, because I can't actually tell what his stance is. :P I think that it's good that snapshotting is going away for a variety of reasons, but I also respect that highly skilled players will probably miss it. It causes a huge degree of skill differentiation on specs that can take advantage of it (Affliction Warlocks, for example), which is neat for high-end (i.e. Mythic) raiders. The problem is that it makes balancing those classes much more difficult across a wide range of skill levels, which is why it's good that it's going away.


Heh.

I think it flat out sucks. It's caused several issues for those specs (Afflic, Shadow, Feral are the big ones atm, Unholy had a bit of a thing with Feathers but I haven't kept up with Unholy in like ever), it makes them incredibly reliant on the right trinkets and stuff like that (being able to line up a Rune with the start of TED at 25% for Feral is like the difference between being Batman and Aquaman), and a lot of the "skill" aspect is bunched into addons for people getting into the spec or not good enough to keep track of things. Some of it is batshit-unintuitive, especially with clipping dots immediately after you apply them, it makes some abilities really sucky (Ferocious Bite for Feral), and it creates some really sucky and punishing situations mostly out of sheer randomness (get targetted by mechanic when trinkets are up, or trinkets proc right as the boss goes into a transition phase? Bye bye dps).

Plus it props up specs around issues. Demo had ONE thing - UVLS, DOOM. Outside of that, the spec has/had glaring issues.
It basically puts a lot more of a variance on sheer randomness instead of skill sometimes, and while skill allows you to capitalise when the odds come good, the difference usually comes down to the better addon/UI. And it adds this huge gulf for someone attempting to pick up the spec and start; I honestly can't even imagine someone who hasn't played WoW really understanding what all the things mean for Feral for a very long time. That hurts the community as well, and it's evident in how bad some of the theorycrafting has become - Shadow Priests being one of the best examples for THAT.

And all of that assumes you had the luck to get the right drops to make it work. Didn't get UVLS for a long time in ToT? Meh. Didn't get Rune for a long time in ToT? Bleh. Still don't have Rune? Sucks to be you, because it's still best in slot, you can come close with 2 HWF'd trinkets, but you're always at a disadvantage because RNG didn't like you.

I think highly-skilled players are only worried that in removing it, Blizzard won't think to add complexity to the spec at all. I'm not so convinced, because I remember when Feral WAS complex, and still FUN, and it didn't need Bleed snapshotting to pull that off, so I think they CAN add some of it back. The problem now is, you can't because snapshotting is already complex, so there's no room to add it before removing snapshotting, and there's no guarantee that what they do add will be FUN complexity (I don't think snapshotting is fun complex, but it's certainly better than the idea of, say, Cataclysm Subtlety).
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:36 pm

"John Madden" was fun?
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:48 pm

Darielle wrote:(I don't think snapshotting is fun complex, but it's certainly better than the idea of, say, Cataclysm Subtlety).

Ironically, I found Cataclysm Subtlety kind of fun. But I'm weird.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:23 pm

Oh don't get me wrong. Cataclysm Subtlety was fun, but that was in spite of the many unfun things about it. Things like having to prepot before Stealthing so that you could get a Prepot and be Stealthed for the opener, needing people to feed you with HAT so that you could Slice for the pull and have 5 cp's, there were "skill" elements that really aren't fun complex the way weaving the different buffs/debuffs were. On top of getting screwed out of your Evis and then being sadface, or being told "Hey you can't Backstab, sucks to be you, go respec for Ultraxion".

And JOHN EFFING MADDEN was awesome. So awesome.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby jere » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:08 pm

I enjoyed Subtlety for levelling and dungeoning. While I did a few raids on him, they weren't hardcore, so it wasn't really a biggie if my DPS on ultraxion was lower or if I didn't prepot. I found the general playstyle of subtlety to be really fun (who doesn't like teleport smashing things!). In some case, there was also the fun in the challenge of doing good dps in Subtlety (relative to the rest of the groups I was in). It was fun to see people in easier DPS classes/specs be surprised at my DPS. I'm sure they could technically beat my DPS due to mechanics, but they would have had to get better first.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:57 am

It would be nice if Raidwide CDs weren't class dependant, so you wouldn't be forced to bring all the right classes. If, say, only healers would have CDs, all all healers would have more or less comparable CDs, you wouldn't be able to stack as much. You can't go stack a bunch of healers. :P

Vanilla was quite... unique. I don't recall who was exactly built like what, but I think we had 1 player always prot, just because he felt like that, and a second player switching between prot and dps depending on the current spot in progression. The rest of the tanks were all DPS. We also rarely had anyone tank more than one mob at the same time.

Though that makes me think. I actually would like to see some encounters that would require a couple more adds that needed to be tanked, but not by the tanks, but by other players. Plate DPS, Ferals, Hunters with Tanking pets, etc... It was pretty common to do that in Vanilla and early TBC, and it's a little sad that it's now gone. A lot of classes have tanking utility in their non-tank specs, but there really is no place for that anymore in the game.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:18 am

Such things are not in place anymore, because essentially if you aren't in tank spec, a raid mob is going to 2shot you even if you go in tank "stance", both due to reduced tank stance effectiveness in non-tank spec (or even non existant in case of ret and monks), and due to the absence of active mitigation.
And if a mob doesnt 2shot a non-tank, it doesnt require a tank at all.

Current game design, that's it.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Sagara » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:52 am

Well, we could have something along those lines back in Mythic. But then we'd probably have something VERY specific that one class could tank.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:49 am

Like a Mage or Warlock tank?

But yeah... With current game design, the only use of "tank" stance is to severely increase your threat. When I'm doing Scenarios without a tank or when I'm out questing with someone else, I run RF just so I don't have to run after them.

I do think it would be an interesting concept to buff DPS survivability in Tank Stance a bit to allow for that kind of encounters, but I guess it would open a whole can of worms for PvP. The idea would probably require a DPS Warrior or Paladin to equip a 1hander and shield, which they might not have sitting in their bags at all, leading to further issues.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:54 pm

Worldie wrote:Such things are not in place anymore, because essentially if you aren't in tank spec, a raid mob is going to 2shot you even if you go in tank "stance", both due to reduced tank stance effectiveness in non-tank spec (or even non existant in case of ret and monks), and due to the absence of active mitigation.
And if a mob doesnt 2shot a non-tank, it doesnt require a tank at all.

Current game design, that's it.


Such things ARE in place. Any Feral with Heart has zero issues surviving for the duration of it, and even for some time after - I've had to do it several times. There are plenty of specs with decent enough cooldowns/mitigation passively; it's not that they'll be 2-shot. It's that there is no point because it's a severe dps loss, and in some cases bosses are coded specifically to, say, ignore Hunter pets etc. Pretty sure if I was actually in Bear and being healed, I could take Blackfuse to 3-stacks and then turn around and blow up an add np, even on Heroic.

It wasn't particularly long ago when Hunters were having to use a Turtle pet on 10H to herd Skeletons on Heroic Nef too, don't forget. It's just that at this point if you wanted to sink enough into it, you might as well just stick a 3rd tank instead.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:28 pm

Darielle wrote:Such things ARE in place. Any Feral with Heart has zero issues surviving for the duration of it, and even for some time after - I've had to do it several times. There are plenty of specs with decent enough cooldowns/mitigation passively; it's not that they'll be 2-shot. It's that there is no point because it's a severe dps loss, and in some cases bosses are coded specifically to, say, ignore Hunter pets etc. Pretty sure if I was actually in Bear and being healed, I could take Blackfuse to 3-stacks and then turn around and blow up an add np, even on Heroic.

Using cooldowns to emergencly offtank something is not the same as actually tanking something as offspec.
What me and the others were talking about was using a DPS spec to actually exstensively tank something through a encounter. Imagine a feral having to tank adds on say, wind lord heroic: you know very well that as soon as the 2nd set of add comes, he'd go splat very fast cause all his CDs would be down.

What you talk about is a emergency or very short offtanking, which can be done even by a priest in dispersion in some cases.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:51 pm

Using cooldowns to emergencly offtank something is not the same as actually tanking something as offspec.
What me and the others were talking about was using a DPS spec to actually exstensively tank something through a encounter. Imagine a feral having to tank adds on say, wind lord heroic: you know very well that as soon as the 2nd set of add comes, he'd go splat very fast cause all his CDs would be down.

What you talk about is a emergency or very short offtanking, which can be done even by a priest in dispersion in some cases.


No, I'm saying that as Feral, without Heart, living through Blackfuse for the entire fight getting up to 3-stacks then rotating to add would not be very hard. I'd imagine the healers couldn't really afford to have the raid clip Shockwaves and all that jazz to make it worse, but the actual encounter would be more than possible.

Feral is simply the biggest thing for picking up tanking in a pinch as a damage dealer because of Heart, which is a good talent anyway. It takes little to no extra prep the way that Demonology using the glyph would involve a specific prep for gemming etc. There are several specs in the game who have the ability to became tank-capable for more than a temporary stretch, there's just not much point because it takes a big sacrifice.

IDK why you're bringing up a 1-tank fight like Wind Lord Heroic, and more importantly acting as if you'd have someone "tank adds". If you were to 2-tank it, and you were to have a non-traditional-tank, said non-traditional-tank would be parked on Wind Lord assuming you're tanking them apart or something anyway (and really, why would you?). Beyond that, if you're spaced out on kills to where there's only 3 adds at a time on the Feral, that would have been doable sans cooldowns, with a bit of butt-clenching, as long as Quickening wasn't stacking. The ability to not die during Dispersion is quite different to someone else living through a minute or two, btw. Even for using cooldowns to soak mechanics, a Cat has 3 cooldowns outside of Heart, and Rogues have comparable power, not even counting how Feint is hilarious if the boss' most threatening ability counts as "aoe". You can't really compare Dispersion for 6 seconds hoping dots can finish thigns off to a Cat's ability to literally tank through 2 whole rounds on Malkorok, which means you go a full cycle to the next Blood Rage phase from the first. Things like Dark Apothesis don't really compare, and mean you're complete shit for the rest of the fight anyway.

Ultimately, the whole non-traditional tank, with the prep that goes behindi t, just becomes another gimmick. The difference with Vanilla was that the talent trees were so screwed up that it was a GOOD tanking spec for your main role, kinda like how for a while Resto did more melee damage than Feral.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:40 am

Darielle wrote:kinda like how for a while Resto did more melee damage than Feral.

it still does in fact in leveling :P
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:55 pm

Worldie wrote:
Darielle wrote:kinda like how for a while Resto did more melee damage than Feral.

it still does in fact in leveling :P


I doubt it still does - it'd definitely get superceded when Roar enters the picture.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:12 pm

Well on my resto druid in leveling, up to lvl 81 or so I could easily 2-3shot any mob in cat form thanks to the int > agi conversion.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:24 pm

Cats have been doing that since like, Wrath :P

It just actually took patience to get to level 20 to GET Cat Form (my Druid was my 8th attempt and the only one to make it past lvl 12)
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:44 pm

In vanilla, I put on my robe and wizard hat
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