Ghostcrawler Quits!

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:57 pm

Sadly enough, in TBC, unless you had a less-than-average skilled guild where as ret you could outdamage some melees, the utility of ret was horrible.
There was *one* fight in the whole expansions where rets were in high demand and it was Brutallus, since in a pure patchwerk fight, that 2% damage to the melee group (Improved sanctity) and 3% crit (not available without a prot pala, and not many guild dared to use a prot pala as Brutallus tank) would outshadow the terrible DPS of the spec itself.


But but EXTRA DI

Ret also added the effect of refresh when it came to Judgments freeing up Holy, and Hunters/Mages LOVED that.

Enh's rotation wasn't that bad; it was just a kludge that made no sense aside from Totem Twisting. Don't forget too that by this time, BM Hunters were among the best, so even if your melee group was covered, having your Hunters buffed also meant something.

Most of that changed with WotLK though. Mind you, even there you had some really broken mechanics going on (Spellpower weapons for example)
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:00 pm

JoW while useful wasnt *that* much of a big deal if there were enough shadowpriests.

When it was only me in the raid, when i asked between JoW and JoCr, everyone always preferred the 3% crit.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:27 pm

Worldie wrote:JoW while useful wasnt *that* much of a big deal if there were enough shadowpriests.

When it was only me in the raid, when i asked between JoW and JoCr, everyone always preferred the 3% crit.


But Shadow Priests weren't optimal for bringing more than one for the caster group and (optional) one for the healer group either. Hunters for example had a bitch of a time if they were forced out of mana regen.

Moreover, it freed up Holy Paladins to actually spamheal without judging more than the once, so it wasn't a choice of choosing one or the other; it was how easy it was to keep it up, or the impact on freeing up healer gcd's. If the raid didn't have the Ret, the Holy Paladin would keep up JoW anyway; just without CS.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Arnock » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:52 pm

I don't think anyone is saying that ret had no utility, but other hybrids just brought more to the table.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:54 am

I miss the old VE, but damned if it wasn't a threat builder...
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:04 am

Old VE was somewhat cool I agree, however, the utility of the new one is fairly superior in my opinion in the current metagame. Strong burst of raid wide healing for few seconds is better than a constant little healing stream for a party :)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:48 pm

I think new VE is terrible, if only because it adds to the arms race of raid cd's all over the place.

It's going to suck if all of those stay in and moving to Mythic means that the "stack raid cooldowns and ignore/stand in mechanics" thing remains.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:08 pm

It's other way around. The new VE is designed that way to give an extra raid CD.

At the moment a good 70% of the classes offers a raid cd or a utility of sort. Expecially on the hybrid casters category, ele shamans had Healing Tide (talent first, baseline now), moonkins a decent Tranquillity. Shadow priests have VE.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:51 pm

Worldie wrote:At the moment a good 70% of the classes offers a raid cd or a utility of sort.

I think that's Darielle's point. There are so many out there that it trivializes some of the mechanics.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:25 am

Other way around.

The raiding is now tuned on you having that many CDs. It's one of the many reasons about the 10v25 debate: while in 25 men you can reasonably assume CD stacking, in 10 men you can't guarantee it, hence why certain class stacking trivalize some 10 men fights.

When Mythic goes live, they can happily assume that in 20 men you got ,say, at least 13 raid CDs, and tune the damage accordingly.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:18 pm

It's other way around. The new VE is designed that way to give an extra raid CD.

At the moment a good 70% of the classes offers a raid cd or a utility of sort. Expecially on the hybrid casters category, ele shamans had Healing Tide (talent first, baseline now), moonkins a decent Tranquillity. Shadow priests have VE.


Other way around.

The raiding is now tuned on you having that many CDs. It's one of the many reasons about the 10v25 debate: while in 25 men you can reasonably assume CD stacking, in 10 men you can't guarantee it, hence why certain class stacking trivalize some 10 men fights.

When Mythic goes live, they can happily assume that in 20 men you got ,say, at least 13 raid CDs, and tune the damage accordingly.


No, that IS my point. The amount of raid cooldowns is too damn high. Warriors alone bring a Demo and a Rally each, every hybrid brings at least one, etc.

It's not that it has an issue for 10-man. 10-man gets to play with fights that demand relatively horrific requirements of raid cd's as-is (Juggy and Thok, especially if you're relying on Tranq, are hilarious - 2 people for 1 cd? Awesome). The problem is that now pop raid cd's and stand in shit is the way to go because of the amount of raid cd's available - on both modes.

Where they do balance around extra raid cd's is like how Horridon on 25-man did just enough damage to warrant a raid cd each use, but 10-man did not. That's not the issue, raid cd's really do nothing there, because it's not like you could get hit by the only other source of damage, the pink Dino, anyway, 10-mans would need the cd's for Jalak, and all it did was add a requirement for the extra cd's, for one source of damage that was the only source of damage left, that was fine - the issue is raid cd's allowing for ignoring stuff that wasn't meant to be ignored. Infest was something tuned around the concept of chaining AM's, Sacrifice, Barriers etc - but this isn't like THAT; a comparable situation would be raid cd's allowing you to just let all Vile Spirits explode on whoever, or stand in Defile.

Take Garrosh - pop all the raid cd's, stand in the axe, Iron Star explodes, who cares, whatev. Complexity of that phase? Neutered. The mechanics aren't balanced around doing that - it's just that things allow for doing that when you can bring 6 raid cd's to each axe. Sha on 25-man was about ignoring Huddles and healing through it. The level to which that changed the fight/phase was HILARIOUS. Twins allowed you to not care about whether Lu'lin dropped 2 comets or not, or moving behind, because hey ALL THE RAID CD'S - basically the only hard part of the fight beyond the dps check. Meggy was way more annoying for 10-man than 25-man just because raid cd's. If we wanted to make it a 10/25 thing - I'd argue it's the reverse, 25 gets affected way more for class stacking and trivialising mechanics. There are even 25-man guilds that will sit any dps class without a dr cooldown just because it's much easier to not have to pay attention to shit (within limits) because it can't kill you because raid cd.

Even where they're required/tuned for, chaining raid cd's is nowhere near anything fun, or complex, or anything like that. Not now when you can literally pop them for no reason. YOu can have one up all the time, whether you need it or not. Just because they got rained out like candy. Copy macro, switch names isn't compelling gameplay.
If that goes ahead in Mythic, it will be more boring than if we had to actually handle some of these mechanics properly. In my opinion.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:41 pm

Darielle wrote:The amount of raid cooldowns is too damn high.

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:29 pm

Zigackly.

Oh yeah, the other issue their team flubbed thoroughly - DoT snapshotting/trinkets. I could fill a blog about that.
Actually ... I kinad should.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:17 am

Reason for the raid cd abudance / stacking is that atm they can't come up with any other way to actually pose a challenge to healers.

If you want that to change, you should first propose a new idea for this subject.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Flex » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:33 am

They need to really nuke smart heals for all classes except for 1 per class, move them back to party only.

Raid cool downs from non-tanks and healers need to go away. Self healing can stay, I like that enough. Abundance of CC needs to be reduced.
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