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Ghostcrawler Quits!

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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:02 am

Worldie wrote:It's been many years so my memory might be a bit off, but I remember people still being skeptical about ret, prot, enha, shadow, etc viability for the first part of WotLK.

Shadow mana batteries during TBC... fun times...
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:11 am

I might be weird but I really enjoyed the mana battery role of my SP in late TBC (i did raid with it up to 3/6 sunwell pre 2.0)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby lythac » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:41 am

Sabindeus wrote:Warriors on the other hand got to both scale their threat and get gear with defense/avoidance/armor on it. ALSO I'd like to point out that Paladins, back before they normalized this, had one of the lowest base health values in the game, I think just above cloth casters.


Also being susceptible to crushing blows made the health difference even worse. Least Ferals had a higher HP than Warriors (pretty sure they did, used them on Broodlord for this reason)
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:52 am

Worldie wrote:I might be weird but I really enjoyed the mana battery role of my SP in late TBC (i did raid with it up to 3/6 sunwell pre 2.0)

Gearing was pretty easy... "does it have more SP than my current piece? win!"
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:39 am

I remind there was something about haste and being able to fit one extra mind flay between mind blasts... or was that wotlk...
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:40 am

I'm sure someone calculated haste breakpoints, but when some of your BiS are greens...
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby jere » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:50 am

lythac wrote:
Also being susceptible to crushing blows made the health difference even worse. Least Ferals had a higher HP than Warriors (pretty sure they did, used them on Broodlord for this reason)


Definitely so in Vanilla. Though at least paladins became less susceptible to Crushing Blows than warriors in TBC which helped counter the health disparity some. I was the goto tank for Prince in our guild cause I could repeatedly tank him receiving 0-1 crushing blows, which was big for us since some of our healers weren't as good as the others some nights. There was something odd about being more scared of pre-nerf Lt. Drake (or whatever the Old Hillsbrad 1st boss was named...forget now) than Prince Melch. But then 4k hamstrings and 7k whirlwinds + melee were definitely scary when you only had 10-12k health.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:32 am

Prince Melch was actually my "selling point" for the guild I had applied to (and that would become the guild that gave me my fame back then :P )

My first trial run was indeed maintanking a Kara run. Oneshotting prince with a Paladin tank in blues that took less dmg than the full epiced wars they were used to did a huge impression I believe.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:27 pm

jere wrote:
lythac wrote:
Also being susceptible to crushing blows made the health difference even worse. Least Ferals had a higher HP than Warriors (pretty sure they did, used them on Broodlord for this reason)


Definitely so in Vanilla. Though at least paladins became less susceptible to Crushing Blows than warriors in TBC which helped counter the health disparity some. I was the goto tank for Prince in our guild cause I could repeatedly tank him receiving 0-1 crushing blows, which was big for us since some of our healers weren't as good as the others some nights. There was something odd about being more scared of pre-nerf Lt. Drake (or whatever the Old Hillsbrad 1st boss was named...forget now) than Prince Melch. But then 4k hamstrings and 7k whirlwinds + melee were definitely scary when you only had 10-12k health.

Well early in TBC we had that bug with consecrate (I think) that would make you susceptible to crushing blows for a second each time you would cast it because you would put your shield on your back. Fortunately threat was pretty easy at that point, so you could stop casting it when Prince went into that beserkish mode.

My "proof" run was also in Kara, going down one of the long hallways. One of our warlocks cast seed of corruption that would bounce around and ended up pulling several groups of undead and everyone expected a wipe, but I snatched them up and survived. After that no one really doubted anything.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:44 pm

I do remind that bug. It wasn't only consecrate, it was also judgement, cleanse, exorcism. If i remember correctly, any ability that would make the character run the caster animation (thus, shealthe his weapon/shield) would make the char count as "in cast" for that GCD and thus 0% avoidance.

I actually kept a screenshot from that run...
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It was my first time tanking prince with my pala (had already done it on my warrior) and I was scared as fuck.
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theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Arnock » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:56 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
My "proof" run was also in Kara, going down one of the long hallways. One of our warlocks cast seed of corruption that would bounce around and ended up pulling several groups of undead and everyone expected a wipe, but I snatched them up and survived. After that no one really doubted anything.



Mine was something similar.

It was on stables trash in my trial run, and I can't remember if someone accidentally pulled a second pack or if someone broke CC, but I grabbed the adds, and eventually actually pulled and held aggro from the rest of the trash until we killed it all.

Noone in the guild had run with a pally tank before, and they didn't doubt them after that.
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Darielle » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:31 pm

Yeah. I knew you were gonna vote that way.

Just about everyone, minus someone, feels that way.


Actually, all I said was that Tigole himself didn't have much to do with Paladins/Hybrids at the time :P, and that it was the entire dev team at the time sucked even when it came to concepts like Survival for Hunters (who weren't "hybrids") or Discipline etc.

I doubt anyone can like him for throwing fits in EQ. I doubt anyone can have a problem with the idea that he thought Player Housing was cool and wanted to get it into WoW's release though (anyone remember that?)

Don't get me wrong, in PVE in vanilla WoW, warriors were in a very good place. They could put out high DPS as a fury spec, and in the same spec they were more effective at tanking than a pally spec'd for tanking, just between defensive stance and available gear. In fact, we would declare a boss on farm mode when we downed it while our MT was in his fury spec.


IIRC, it was pretty damn commonplace to use a MS build for everything except the hardest hittign stuff that actually warranted going Deep Prot.

It's been many years so my memory might be a bit off, but I remember people still being skeptical about ret, prot, enha, shadow, etc viability for the first part of WotLK.


It wasn't on my silly server :P. We were lamenting that the Shadow PRiest who replaced me sucked so badly that he couldn't keep Misery uptime over 50% (Misery just needed ONE dot to be applied), but the classes themselves - Ret probably was the one that had the most skepticism, but Shadow and Enh people enjoyed, and Prot for sure.

I think it was Illhoof when our guild finally decided "Hey you know what, it's easier with a Prot Pally than healing the freaking Lock".
It really didn't help that our Paladin joined in when we were on Aran and Aran just sucked.

By the time I made my Paladin we were in SSC, so it was just like "Whatev, want me for Tidewalker?" followed by "No, we need the mana battery".
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Arnock » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:23 pm

Well, shadow and enh didn't put out great dps either, but they had a huge amount of utility between mana battery, bloodlust and totems.

Ret on the other hand brought an extra blessing (could be covered by holy/prot), refreshing JoWis, and 2% more damage by group members.


Also, I could have sworn that there was a talent that increased all damage done to your target, or something, but I can't find it for the life of me... (EDIT: 3% raid-wide crit against the target, but easily provided by a prot pally)


But at any rate, there was a clear advantage to bringing an enhance shaman or spriest, but ret offered much less utility, and it wasn't considered to be as worthwhile to take one.


EDIT: Is it bad that I'm seriously considering trying to find a TBC private server?
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Thels » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:57 am

I'm guessing you'll get bored of it soon enough. :P
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Re: Ghostcrawler Quits!

Postby Worldie » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:26 am

Sadly enough, in TBC, unless you had a less-than-average skilled guild where as ret you could outdamage some melees, the utility of ret was horrible.
There was *one* fight in the whole expansions where rets were in high demand and it was Brutallus, since in a pure patchwerk fight, that 2% damage to the melee group (Improved sanctity) and 3% crit (not available without a prot pala, and not many guild dared to use a prot pala as Brutallus tank) would outshadow the terrible DPS of the spec itself.

Enhas at that time were good... if you had one, and even then, the benefit compared to just putting a resto shaman in melee group was minimal. Good enhas were also very hard to find and the rotation was very complicate and spammy (hello air totem dance?), so the Enha had to be very good to justify taking the spot of a rogue that did almost 2x his dps in same gear.


Obviously, I'm talking about Sunwell level guilds. In less skilled guilds where they didn't even get to clear T5, people usually didn't care much.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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