what about LFR?

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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:40 am

Not being eligible for loot unless doing a X amount of heal/dps would be fine.
X can be like 50% of the expected dps/hps of a person doin the fight right in the minimal ilvl required.

I'd guess demanding someone to do more than autoattack dps should be fine. You afk? No loot. You can press a button every 5 second? Gz.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:31 am

You died on the pull because the tank fucked up? Too bad, no loot.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:12 am

Yup. Though I talked about DPS and not damage done.

Just to reiterate that there's no clear way to decide if someone deserves loots or not :P
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby oldboyz » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:17 am

KysenMurrin wrote:You died on the pull because the tank fucked up? Too bad, no loot.


hehe, same in my HM raid - we have dkp malus for those who pull before tank or still don't understand aggro concept :mrgreen:

so if the tank fucked up, you just wait and demonstrate some smart thinking to not overaggro poor tank :roll:
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby oldboyz » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:38 am

how to detect slacker :
-check apm
-check auto attack %
-check dmg taken in aoe

it should be a complex and internal calculation, so slakers have no clue how to flight under the radar

and in the end, it may only give an overall result without details, tell people only "you are very bad (bottom10%)/ average / awesome (top10%)" may be is enought

personnaly, i don't ask everyone in a lfr to be a kick-ass, but at least that bad player are not the right model to follow. even better if good player are also better rewarded
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:41 am

Problem is, at the moment many people don't just "not care about being good", but think that being AFK in LFR is actually a good thing to do. (And even don't want to kick afk people)
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:12 am

Just thought, that maybe while it's not possible to determinate safely who is "being carried", it's possible to do the opposite.

What if the game prized contributing to the fight? Say you did mechanics right (didn't get hit by shit, stood where you should have stood, did a high % of the necessary damage, etc) you got rewarded with a increased (or even 100% if not a single fail) chance at loot - extra gold - whatever? Such a system would be much easier to determinate.

Imagine a "glory" achi for doing whole LFR without a single fail? :P
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:51 am

Worldie wrote:Just thought, that maybe while it's not possible to determinate safely who is "being carried", it's possible to do the opposite.

What if the game prized contributing to the fight? Say you did mechanics right (didn't get hit by shit, stood where you should have stood, did a high % of the necessary damage, etc) you got rewarded with a increased (or even 100% if not a single fail) chance at loot - extra gold - whatever? Such a system would be much easier to determinate.

Imagine a "glory" achi for doing whole LFR without a single fail? :P


Basing it off damage done doesn't have a reward structure for tanks or healers. Having strict thresholds also penalizes classes that are less AOE-friendly, and players that are less geared. There's a finite amount of damage that can be done each fight, and if the high-geared players "eat" a bigger portion of the damage pie, there's less pie for the folks who actually need gear.

That's why I prefer the idea of an APM rubric -- it focuses on whether or not the player is attempting to contribute. Having a cap to the bonus prevents idiotic gaming of the system, but if someone is going to go to such lengths to game the system there's not much you can do about that -- you can attempt to design the heuristic such that gaming it takes as much effort as just playing the goddamn fight.

You could weight the bonus based on a DPS or HPS compared to their gear's "theoretical" HPS or DPS -- this can be modified fight-to-fight (like, Raidbot's epeen comparison, for example). I don't know how you could design this reward structure for tanks -- you don't necessarily want to base it off DPS, because that, again, leads to unhealthy behavior.

I like your idea of added bonuses for performance. Bonuses for interrupts, not standing in shit, dispels, CD usage and the like. The only problem with interrupts and dispels is there's a finite amount of them to go around, so they can't be huge bonuses, but enough to make people want them.

I have a mod that announces interrupts; it's interesting how much people in random LFDs start competing for interrupts once there's a public announcement of who got what. Some of the party chat is really interesting when it comes to good natured competition on that front.

It'd be really nice if the game provided more feedback on your performance after a fight (at any level). I'd like to know my own APM and how well I did -- like the scorecard at the end of every Street Fighter match.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:28 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:you can attempt to design the heuristic such that gaming it takes as much effort as just playing the goddamn fight.

This comes to mind when I read that :P.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Arnock » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:34 am

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Re: what about LFR?

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:18 am

Skye1013 wrote:This comes to mind when I read that :P.


Bingo. Well designed systems reward "good" behavior best, and not "bad-but-optimized" behavior.



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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Ruldar » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:39 am

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Okay, maybe not that one.
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