what about LFR?

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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Andurin » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:41 am

Sometimes tho, you get a really nice group of people in LFR. Last night we had a DK tank that was keeping the group together on his own. He knew what to do, guide people where needed, keep the group going and kill the second boss in gates of retribution without a second tank. And we proceeded to kill Dark shamans and Nazgrim without any trouble just by the guiding people in the right direction ^^

On the other hand, I also did have the first part of Throne of Thunder with this amazing Resto shaman. Never had I met anyone that I would want to strangle ingame so hard as this guy. But, thanks to the kick system, he had a 4h kick protection -.-

I`m not sure on wich side I am on in this discussion. Yes, I wouldnt mind having better tools to get rid of annoying people. But on the other hand, often its not really needed.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby econ21 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:03 am

Arnock wrote:... someone told me to just ignore mechanics.

... I actually was geared enough to move on to the second tier groups, but I just couldn't find the motivation to continue.


You should try tanking LFR - it's much more engaging imo and it really helps if you do know the mechanics.

You also were experiencing "old" content. When a LFR wing just opens, things are much more interesting. SoO LFR is still quite challenging for many raids and hence can take an hour or more to complete just one wing.

Worldie wrote:...but my alts kinda have to if they want any improvement in their ilvl.


I know but I sometimes feel a lot of the problem with LFR is the bad attitude of the people running it. A more constructive, positive and cooperative spirit would go a long way. It's rather like the bizarre mentality in random BGs, where the losing teams often seem to dissolve into cursing each other in chat. It's a game - have fun or at least stop spoiling the fun of others.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Arnock » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:13 pm

I did start tanking a few runs, after finally got a tank set together.

But I could barely even find the motivation to want to gear up to progress to later content, I was having more fun soloing old raids than I was in the new areas themselves.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Winkle » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:34 am

Arnock wrote: I didn't have the time to commit to a dedicated raid schedule.


Arnock wrote:I really miss TBC/wrath.


Content with a similar or perhaps even harder difficulty is available today. Along with perhaps the easier 10man stuff in the guise of flex.

Do you miss the content or just miss having the time to play how you want?

Tanking in LFR can be quite fun at times, i queued for LFR Garrosh the other day just to see how it was, turns out that if you know the fight as a tank you can basically pull the whole group through with you.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Arnock » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:53 pm

Winkle wrote:Content with a similar or perhaps even harder difficulty is available today. Along with perhaps the easier 10man stuff in the guise of flex.

Do you miss the content or just miss having the time to play how you want?




A little bit of both.

Plus a general dissatisfaction with the direction blizz has taken the game, and I'm sure that my glasses are very much rose tinted.

I don't really like a lot of the changes made to Paladins, I barely recognized the class now, and most of the reasons that I originally liked playing my paladin are not really valid anymore.

I'm not a huge fan of how homogenized a lot of the classes have become.

Between LFR, LFG, and realms "merging" in low-pop zones, a huge amount of the server communities that I re-visited just felt dead.

Pandaria, and now this new upcoming expac both feel a bit.. uninpsired, lore-wise. In TBC, Wotlk and Cataclysm you had Illidan, Arthas and Deathwing as looming threats, whereas Pandaria just feels like "Oh, here's a new continent, now with pandas and more content!"

I don't know, wow just felt like it was slowly transitioning from an MMO to a single player game with a multiplayer mode.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Flex » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:49 pm

Arnock wrote:Pandaria, and now this new upcoming expac both feel a bit.. uninpsired, lore-wise. In TBC, Wotlk and Cataclysm you had Illidan, Arthas and Deathwing as looming threats, whereas Pandaria just feels like "Oh, here's a new continent, now with pandas and more content!"


Highly disagree with this. The lore for the entire expansion and Pandaren in general has been outstanding.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Brute » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:56 am

I love that LFR exists because it allows someone like me to see all the content. Pandas and Cata are the only expansions that I actually cleared all of the raids, and I've been playing since release. I've never been "hardcore" enough (i.e., had enough free time) to join a serious guild with good players long term and show up for every raid, and it's only gotten worse as I've gotten older and added more things to my plate.

I don't particularly enjoy the experience beyond killing each boss the first couple of times, though. I played Pandas for a month, got max level, looted the isle, participated in clearing every raid through LFR, and seeing as how all my friends have quit, I'm done till Warlords comes out except maybe for screwing around some on my unlimited trial account. There's a surprising amount of content in the first 20 levels.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:40 am

I don't particularly enjoy the experience beyond killing each boss the first couple of times, though.


Who the fuck does? Not talking just about LFR but any boss on any difficulty get's dull after you've killed them a couple of times. For certain bosses it does take longer then others but it happens.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby theckhd » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:41 pm

Arnock wrote:I don't really like a lot of the changes made to Paladins, I barely recognized the class now, and most of the reasons that I originally liked playing my paladin are not really valid anymore.

Keep in mind that this is a fairly subjective statement. I feel that paladins are a lot more fun to play nowadays than they were in Wrath, TBC, or Vanilla. And the general consensus from the community has been the same. There will always be people that feel differently though; you'll never please everyone with any design.

I also don't really agree with your homogenization point, but that's on game design and encounter design principles (highly mismatched skill sets leads to a lot of class stacking, and general feelings of the game being "broken").
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby SteveL » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:36 am

I like LFR on the whole. I've got through a couple of oqueue flex runs, but I don't normally have the time to do that.

My faith in LFR was helped a little last night. A Druid queued as healer, and then said "this is so easy, so I'm going to DPS rather than heal". He vastly out-geared the tanks and proceeded to pull aggro most of the time, while bitching and moaning that the tanks were terrible. I voted to kick him, with no luck and then a little later on, the vote kick window appeared and lo and behold, Mr annoying Druid was gone. After his removal the rest of the run was fun and everyone had a good time. Just goes to show that one bad apple can ruin the run for 24 other people, which is the main problem with LFR.

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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Arnock » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:11 am

theckhd wrote:
Arnock wrote:I don't really like a lot of the changes made to Paladins, I barely recognized the class now, and most of the reasons that I originally liked playing my paladin are not really valid anymore.

Keep in mind that this is a fairly subjective statement. I feel that paladins are a lot more fun to play nowadays than they were in Wrath, TBC, or Vanilla. And the general consensus from the community has been the same. There will always be people that feel differently though; you'll never please everyone with any design.

I also don't really agree with your homogenization point, but that's on game design and encounter design principles (highly mismatched skill sets leads to a lot of class stacking, and general feelings of the game being "broken").



Oh, I'm well aware that it's a subjective statement, and I'm aware that the game is much better, balance-wise, now than ever.

But my glasses are very much rose-tinted, and I feel that classes in earlier expansions had a much more unique flavor to them.

The TBC paladin may not have been as effective of a main tank as a warrior, but we could still effectively MT just about everything that didn't require a warrior-only mechanic, and yet we were the only melee class that wielded spell power, were the best AOE tanks, and the old seal/judgement system was an actual unique mechanic.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Extermi » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:58 am

Speaking about unique tanking mechanics, back in the time when raiding Zul Gurub, I had to chain mana pots to keep my rotation going and keep aggro. Especially important since there was no taunt (and no ranged pull, for that matter). Unique, yes. Do I want it back ? NO !
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Brute » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:06 am

Io.Draco wrote:
I don't particularly enjoy the experience beyond killing each boss the first couple of times, though.


Who the fuck does? Not talking just about LFR but any boss on any difficulty get's dull after you've killed them a couple of times. For certain bosses it does take longer then others but it happens.

Well I guess my point was that when I was raiding with a guild, it was enjoyable just to see familiar faces, hear familiar voices, see inside jokes develop, perform antics like BoP'ing the tank, etc, so that even if we were fighting the same boss multiple times, there was a social aspect that made it still enjoyable.

LFR obviously cannot provide that. Except BoP'ing the tank... but then you'd probably get kicked.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Arnock » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:35 pm

Extermi wrote:Speaking about unique tanking mechanics, back in the time when raiding Zul Gurub, I had to chain mana pots to keep my rotation going and keep aggro. Especially important since there was no taunt (and no ranged pull, for that matter). Unique, yes. Do I want it back ? NO !



Well, to be fair, I started playing after TBC's release =P

And I agree that it wasn't perfect, even then. Especially when it came to encounter mechanics that prevented certain classes from tanking, like mana burns with paladins, or illidan's ability that needed to be blocked.

Brute wrote:Well I guess my point was that when I was raiding with a guild, it was enjoyable just to see familiar faces, hear familiar voices, see inside jokes develop, perform antics like BoP'ing the tank, etc, so that even if we were fighting the same boss multiple times, there was a social aspect that made it still enjoyable.

LFR obviously cannot provide that. Except BoP'ing the tank... but then you'd probably get kicked.


That's part of the older expansions that I miss.

Sure, LFG/LFR are really convenient, but some of the best friendships I made in-game were from finding good players while doing pugs.

Now it's just a silent, afk farm-fest with as little human interaction as possible.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:07 am

That's something I like about flex runs that want teamspeak, more often than not it is a half/guild group with banter in the voice chat. Gets quite fun at times if zou get a good group.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:37 pm

They need an ELO system for LFR... if you do the run, actually try (use cds, do more than just auto-attack, actually play the role you queue for) and kill the bosses, your ELO goes up. If you afk/get kicked repeatedly/consistently die at the beginning of a fight to the exact same mechanics/drop mid-fight, your ELO goes down. If you guild queue (covering a majority of the LFR raid) your ELO is unaffected (to prevent people from guild queueing to raise their ELO then afking from then on.)

From there... if your raid's overall ELO is below a certain threshold... remove Determination, as you clearly aren't trying hard enough for that buff to ever make a difference.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:11 am

While i'd like some sort of rating system, sadly that would defeat the point of LFR.

LFR is a way to allow even the baddest of the bads to see content. If a person gets to 0 Elo somehow, then he's going to be mixed with other 0 Elo people, probably the group wont even be able to pass the trashs. So even if a person is bad but is genuinely trying to improve, he won't even get the chance to because the group will keep wiping to even the simples mechanic.

Won't work.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Paxen » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:33 am

If blizzard implemented ELO, they'd use to it to ensure that all runs had a mix of good and bad players so that everybody got to see the entire raid.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Amirya » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:42 am

But there'd be another problem, mostly 'cause I'm unfamiliar with this concept.

Tonight, on Megaera, we wiped twice because the idiot warrior tank decided he was going to tank the blue head, so my roommate got to tank the red head until he died.

Is my roommate then penalized for dying, for "pulling aggro" or is the warrior penalized for being a full on retard?
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:59 am

Paxen wrote:If blizzard implemented ELO, they'd use to it to ensure that all runs had a mix of good and bad players so that everybody got to see the entire raid.

Which is essentially how LFR is composed now, so I wouldn't see the point of putting the system in place :P
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:22 am

The idea being, if you're bad, but at least trying, your ELO shouldn't fall to the point of being unable to complete LFR, but if you are consistently afk/getting reported or kicked for trolling/not even putting forth some sort of effort in what is intended to be the simplest form of raiding in existence... then you don't deserve the loot and should just youtube the content...

As far as getting forced into tanking because the actual tanks die... I'd argue that if you queue as dps and then heal or tank... that's less of an issue than people queueing as heals/tanks and instead dpsing (or afking.)
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby oldboyz » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:51 am

or instead of "ELO", call it "karma" :D


regarding a raid full of low ELOs/karma :
-those who slak deserve it... end of story
-for those who are unfortunalty trying the wrong way... well they have to figure a better way, and pray to improve enought while wiping to get a little better elo and then be pop with a better raid
(and yes, raid should be a little mixed, so when a low karma jump in a good raid, he has an opportunity to show he deserves a better ranking, and leave hell :mrgreen: )

i'm quite sure ELO (or whatevr name) is the best way to help casual and "bad" player : they have an indicator that tell them how much they can improve (if they want to), while most important : it protect all the average players from the very idiot who ruin their fun


PS. regarind Maegera exemple : it could be managed with a simple rule "tank agro same head --> bad". so idiot warrior get electick shock the first time he taunt again the blue head, other tank also taunt blue head (yes, no one on red..), if idiot retaunt blue --> re-electick shock, until he finally move to another head or die from many eletrick shock! :mrgreen: this process may wipe the raid once (because no one on red), but then, all know it is idiot tank's fault
yes, for each fight, dev would have to figure a lot of rules based on his specific mechanics :mrgreen: i think blizz earn enought money to allow us a better LFR experience

so in the end, the very very idiot who refuse to understand : they died from too much electrick shock, thank for the natural selection :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
i'm quite sure for 1 of those crappy player who quit WOW (or get excl for all raid activity), it make 24 other players happier and keep longuer their subscription
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:28 am

Unless you can wire a shock collar directly to someone's face to deal these electric shocks, what you've described is the stacking debuff that's already in the game. If they didn't pay attention to -- or didn't understand -- the stacking debuff before, what makes you think they'll learn any different just because you changed the name?

I think it'd be far more interesting to monitor Actions-per-Minute, and give a +bonus to loot based on APM, with a ceiling of, say, 30. There are 40 GCDs in one minute. Allowing for lag, empty GCDs (minus a few) and off-the-GCD abilities (plus a few) it doesn't seem otherworldy to hit 30 APM. Give a bonus APM-10 to loot roll, and let the player know what that bonus is.

This penalizes the crap out of AFKers (whom I detest), and very transparently rewards active participation.

It's not a perfect solution -- it doesn't take into account spammable low-damage abilities for example, but it starts getting people into the mindset of "ok I should always be doing something," which isn't a bad first step at the LFR level.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:18 am

Would penalize classes with long cast times and healers.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Paxen » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:32 am

Worldie wrote:Would penalize classes with long cast times and healers.


Normalize long casts to be cast time/1.5 sec APM? Healers are a bigger problem. Maybe they'll all get dps fillers in Warlords, but it will be a little sad to force every healer into atonementweaving.
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