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Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:14 am
by Incalcando
There are SO many people out there who didn't get the message, due to a misleading front page announcement on MMO-champ. What's happening here is that Flex and Normal are simply renamed to Normal and Heroic respectively, because both use the flexible scaling system and it wouldn't make sense to have 2 difficulties with it, but only one named flex.

Mythic is just a RENAME for heroic, the new thing here is the group size ONLY.

In other words, while there technically IS 10HC next expansion, it will be as hard as 10 normal now. If you want the equivalent of heroic raiding in WoD 20-man mythic is your only option.


I'm sorry if this is being discussed in another thread, I really felt like it needed its own with the amount of misinformation floating around at the moment and it being the most important change for PvE guilds that they announced.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:17 am
by Kai
edit: yeah, just saw some folks posting rather confused stuff. nevermind this, sorry. :)

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:37 am
by Incalcando
Kai wrote:you can read & write english, make proper use of both caps lock and bold letters . sweet!


It might be obvious to you, but basically every single person that I talked to who did not watch the livestream of Blizzcon and just read about the changes afterwards has the wrong idea. I don't know what the problem with what I posted is, if a moderator thinks it contributes nothing he should just delete it.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:56 am
by Fenris
Mythic is just a RENAME for heroic, the new thing here is the group size ONLY.

And that's what most people i've seen have problems with,not the names

I'd been happy for 20m heroics back when my 25m guild still hold up

But Cataclysm managed to kill that and force us into 10m.

Now my,reduced,10m guild will have to recruit a crapload of peple just to keep running heroics,and since everyone will be doing the same,it'll be a mess.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:08 am
by Fenrìr
This really didn't need it's own thread when there's a whole WoD discussion one going on. Teranoid already stated the same information a whole day sooner than this, so a simple check and re-emphasis would have sufficed, imo.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33615&start=90

Second post from the bottom and then it just delves out from there during the next four pages.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:11 am
by Belloc
Fenris wrote:
Mythic is just a RENAME for heroic, the new thing here is the group size ONLY.

And that's what most people i've seen have problems with,not the names

I'd been happy for 20m heroics back when my 25m guild still hold up

But Cataclysm managed to kill that and force us into 10m.

Now my,reduced,10m guild will have to recruit a crapload of peple just to keep running heroics,and since everyone will be doing the same,it'll be a mess.

Fortunately, a bunch of other 10-man guilds will be recruiting new players, too. And 25-man guilds will be shedding players. This means that you can have guild mergers or just take the people leaving 25-man guilds. It really won't be that big of a deal if some guilds are willing to collapse into others.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:30 am
by Io.Draco
It's a dumb system in so many ways.

Having separate raid lockouts for every single difficulty is a big FUCK YOU to regular raiders. It just means we will have to do everything multiple times per week over and over again.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:50 am
by Jabari
Io.Draco wrote:Having separate raid lockouts for every single difficulty is a big FUCK YOU to regular raiders. It just means we will have to do everything multiple times per week over and over again.


I really, really, really don't get why this is.

My hunter (i.e., a "regular raider" - currently 1/14H) has done a grand total of one wing of flex this entire patch.

Now, I constantly run Flex with my other characters (i.e., the ones NOT doing normal). I also have basically completely avoided LFR - the only times I really do LFR anymore are to finish up cloaks (all done now), and I'll sometimes take my enchanter/healer through MV 1 for some quick VP and sha crystals.

So for me it's been one difficulty per char per week. Nothing more.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:38 am
by Flex
They explained it as well. "We tend not to do well when we limit what players can do."

So fuck all the complainers this is what you get.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:58 am
by Worldie
If you run all the resets every week , you aren't a regular raider nor a casual, you are a wannabe hardcore.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:02 pm
by Io.Draco
Worldie wrote:If you run all the resets every week , you aren't a regular raider nor a casual, you are a wannabe hardcore.


I should explain that when I mean regular raiders I am talking of guilds which are interested in clearing all the current content on the hardest difficulty before the next raiding tier comes out.

To me hardcore is not indicative of skill but rather time spent playing, and you can be a shit player but still be hardcore just like you can be casual but also extremely skilled.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:10 pm
by Worldie
Exactly. IF you put THAT MUCH time you aren't a regular raider. Regular raiders rarely even bother with LFR and Flex, because they got a real life to attend and thus have just the time for needed stuff.

If you are putting that much effort in WoW, you might be a casual skilled player, but are pretending to put hardcore amount of time in it.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:18 pm
by Io.Draco
Imagine though you are a new or returning player without a guild, you have to do LFR to get gear and you even have to do Flex to a degree before being able to even step foot in normal raiding with a guild.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:34 pm
by halabar
Time available =/= hardcore or casual...

Also, if you are clearing all the hardest content each tier, you likely won't need to run LFR, and perhaps even the new Normal, because your gear will be good enough to where it's not worth the effort.

Of course, you may need to on the first tier of the expansion.

Back on topic...

Now that there is one level of top-end raiding, while they say that mythic is not harder than the new heroic, it would not suprise me at all if they tuned it a bit tighter, and things took a bit longer than in the past. I'll bet that they'll make sure it deserves that "mythic" title.

Would not suprise me to see the new "heroic" tuned a bit tighter as well, and LFR a bit weaker...

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:16 pm
by Belloc
Io.Draco wrote:It's a dumb system in so many ways.

Having separate raid lockouts for every single difficulty is a big FUCK YOU to regular raiders. It just means we will have to do everything multiple times per week over and over again.

Can you explain to me, then, why I haven't run Flex on my Paladin since the week that Downfall was released? Why I haven't even touched LFR on my Paladin? Why I only run two of the Flex wings on my warlock?

I mean, they all have their own lockouts and I consider myself a regular (non-hardcore) raider and I'm certainly not doing everything multiple times per week over and over again. Why do you think it'll be different in WoD?

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:34 pm
by Belloc
Io.Draco wrote:Imagine though you are a new or returning player without a guild, you have to do LFR to get gear and you even have to do Flex to a degree before being able to even step foot in normal raiding with a guild.

Okay, now imagine that you are a new or returning player WITH a guild. You still have to either run LFR OR collect valor for gear purchases, run Timeless Isle for catchup epics and then run Flex, right?

If you're a new player, you'll be able to gear up just as fast as anyone else at the start of the expansion. If you're a returning player, you have to take advantage of the catch-up mechanisms, guild or not. Hopefully they put plenty of those in the game with WoD so that we aren't "forced" to do LFR... but, let's be honest here, if they don't, you only have yourself to blame. I've only ever "quit" late in a tier and I've never had to take advantage of catch up mechanics.

If you're going to quit, of course you're going to have to temporarily work harder to catch up... and why should it be any different? Does it make sense that you should be able to skip all of the introductory content and just jump right into the latest content?

You know what I would do, right now, if I were a returning player? I'd run Timeless Isle until I was full on 496 gear (with a 476 weapon via timeless coins) and then I'd start joining ToT groups on Openraid or OQueue while farming valor for 522 epics. Yes, I'd probably also do the current LFR, but it wouldn't be for long. A short while later, I'd get started on Flex modes. Finally, I'd be ready for Normals/heroics. And I wouldn't complain about it because it's my own fault that I fell behind. I also wouldn't be complaining because it'd only take about a month, tops, for me to be caught up and ready to go. I say this because, surprise surprise, I had to catch my warlock up after spending most of the first tier with him sitting at level 85.

I'm sorry if this came off as rude, but I see people complaining about being forced to do content or how hard it is to catch up as a returning player... and it's really not. I've had to play the catch-up game (on my alt) in every expansion so far and it has never, not once, been even remotely challenging. Either I've got extremely good luck or I'm putting actual work into it while other people are complaining about how hard it is. I'll let you guess which one I think it is.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:40 pm
by Io.Draco
If you're going to quit, of course you're going to have to temporarily work harder to catch up..


Of course, but look back at BC or even Wrath. You did heroics, got badges/points, got gear with badges/points.

What you did not do was run stripped down versions of raids you want to do later on...unless we talk of Wrath with it's heroic versions of raids and how 10 man normal was puggable.

Timeless works sure, and I DO NOT MIND THAT, what I DO mind is LFR, and why would you NOT do LFR while also doing timeless isle?

My point was not that it's "difficult" it's piss easy compared to what was previously, but why would you raid normally after doing LFR? What's the incentive?

The only real reason, besides the challenge, is the social aspect that you get from playing in a guild.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:47 pm
by Belloc
Io.Draco wrote:
If you're going to quit, of course you're going to have to temporarily work harder to catch up..


Of course, but look back at BC or even Wrath. You did heroics, got badges/points, got gear with badges/points.

What you did not do was run stripped down versions of raids you want to do later on...unless we talk of Wrath with it's heroic versions of raids.

Timeless works sure, and I DO NOT MIND THAT, what I DO mind is LFR.

Then don't run it. Going off what Blizzard has said, it sounds to me like Valor gear will be making a comeback (my reasoning being that they mentioned the possibility of removing justice, leaving valor, while also mentioning that they're not sure if item upgrades will return. In other words, the only other thing to spend valor on is gear), so there's that. There are also crafted items, previous raid tiers (if you're a returning player, you're probably returning in a later tier, right? Otherwise 5-mans would be enough to gear you up), and reputation gear. Oh, and they also suggested, in an off-hand way, that we'd be getting multiple tiers of 5-mans (in other words, expect new 5-mans to come with certain patches), which is another catch-up mechanism.

So, when WoD comes, I expect this to be a viable catch-up strategy: Spend the first week running 5 mans until you have enough 5-man gear and valor to put yourself up to the level of the first tier of content. Spend the end of that week and then later week(s) running normal (flex) modes of the first tier of content. Do this for a couple of weeks and then start running heroic (normal) modes of the first tier while running normal (flex) modes of the next/current tier while still collecting valor gear. Bam, you're caught up and you never stepped foot in LFR.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:49 pm
by Io.Draco
How about just removing LFR then? What's the purpose of it if you don't have to run it to get into raiding.

Also while your argument of "don't do it then" might fly with old returning players it doesn't work with new players. Why would they purposely avoid content in the game you are paying money for on monthly basis?

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:12 pm
by Amirya
I think you missed the point you just stated.

You don't have to do LFR to get into raiding. It helps, but it's not a requirement or an attunement.

My roommate did a Flex this weekend with my normal group, he only had one piece of LFR gear from the first wing. We cleared out wings 3 and 4, and though he had to step out for Garrosh due to low dps (lovely lag and unfamiliarity), he considers it a success. He picked up three weapons from six bosses.

He has never seen wing 2 of Siege. In any difficulty.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:48 pm
by fuzzygeek
Io.Draco wrote:How about just removing LFR then? What's the purpose of it if you don't have to run it to get into raiding.


Different target audience.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:11 pm
by Io.Draco
Yeah as if players outside that target audience will never use that system.


Right....difficulty levels do NOT WORK FOR MMOs. You have scenarios, use them for this "target audience".

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:48 pm
by Worldie
LFR is not a raid. LFR is solo play that requires no effort. LFR is a glorified heroic dungeon. Has absolutely nothing to do with organized raiding.
From what you say, if they called it "glorified scenario", you'd have no problem in doing it.

You should know that. Many people actually atm just join LFR and go afk or autowalk. For how desplicable it can seemb, you can do it, and no, you won't get kicked.

Also, as people said, LFR is not mandatory. Timeless gear is 7 ilvl higher than LFR drops, and is farmable (faster if lucky). There's also several 522/553 craftables available.

The only thing you may want to really do LFR for, is a Weapon. You can fill every other slot with 535+ gear without setting a single foot in LFR.

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:19 pm
by halabar
Io.Draco wrote:Yeah as if players outside that target audience will never use that system.


Right....difficulty levels do NOT WORK FOR MMOs. You have scenarios, use them for this "target audience".


OK, all heroic.. everyone else gets scenarios. happy? :roll:

You are looking at the raid levels from your own very very narrow viewpoint, of a hardcore raider that will spend 30 hours a week if Blizz allows it. Most others don't do that.

LFR is tourist mode, as stated at Blizzcon. It is meant for those that will never do other raiding. It's also meant as a catch-up for those who need some more skill, or some more gear.

It's not meant for the hardcore that will grind for 20 hours for a 2 point ilvl upgrade.

We already had this argument a month ago, let's not go there again... please....

Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:06 pm
by Teranoid
Wow this thread got stupid in a hurry.

But no seriously if you're going to start the LFR bullshit again go read the other 70 threads instead of trying to stir up shit again.