Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby culhag » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:03 am

Io.Draco wrote:Of course they aren't, I have no real hope they will actually. It's easier for them ( read lazy ) to design only 1 raid with multiple difficulties instead of multiple raids for different players ( casuals, average, hardcore ).

So you'd rather have 3 bosses exclusively for your preferred difficulty, rather than 12 bosses shared on all four difficulties ?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:37 am

Quantity doesn't always equal quality, there's a lot of filler raid bosses. For every one like Lei Shan, Ragnaros, Firefighter and Kael'Thas there's a truckload of bosses like Gorefiend or Azgalor, let alone like Lurker or Void Reaver.

Personally I prefer multiple raid instances with different lore, story, foes and mechanics to deal with but less bosses ( around 6-8 is ideal ).

Sagara: I'd argue that if anything requires some actual effort to be put into it it's a lot more enjoyable then it would be otherwise, a bar of chocolate, a bouncy ball. A raid boss and so on.

To take your metaphor, the bouncy ball is right there, it's right in front of you at the top of a tree. You can get it, but you have to climb the tree to actually reach it.

Of course I'd rather not see a repeat of the Cataclysm launch with it's initial raids: Oh you don't have BiS blue heroic gear, fully gemed and enchanted as well raid wide flasks/elixirs + food and Boss Timers well then GO FUCK YOURSELF SCRUB QQ MORE.

That is a problem, entry level raids like Karazhan are a necessity.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:54 am

Heroic/Mythic-only raids is nothing but a wordy, twisted way of saying "I want my own raid with a NO SCRUBS ALLOWED sign."

Q.E.D., no ifs, no buts. What Blizzard is doing is say: "Here, there are now *FOUR* boucy balls: one that bounces by itself, one that you have to bounce yourself, one that your have to get from the top shelf, and one that stand at the end of this U.S. Army Boot Camp Race. You'll be getting Chocolate, Bronze, Silver and Gold medals depending on the ball you bounce on." And basically every answer we've had so far is:

A) Stop putting easy bouncy balls! I want my bouncy ball to be (more) unique!
B) I want MY bouncy ball to be more special, so stop giving chocolate medals!

What I can get is "Three smaller raids is cooler than one big one" (although I'd argue that SoO was technically three raids that simply followed the same story arc). But that's not Game Design, that's World and Story Design.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:58 am

Well we're getting twelve bosses across two or three raids in WoD's first tier, right?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:18 am

16, 2 raids.

Sagara: Or maybe it would be better if the bouncy balls were made separate instead of all of them being neutered versions of the Gold one. There have always been balance issues with difficulty modes, even from the days of the glorious BC heroics there were issues.

Having different raid instances with different mechanics works better then trying to have a one size fits all mentality for every raid boss which is only going to get worse now that Blizzard has scalable difficulty depending on raid members present.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Paxen » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:33 am

Io.Draco, your problem is that you want to do hard content, but you don't want to do hard content for its own sake - you want to be rewarded with a unique bit of story for facing the hardest challenges.

I can see how that is appealing, and in a vacuum it sounds like a good idea - but Blizzard has decided that it's not in their best interest to devote the amount of resources that's needed to create a raid with its own art, gameplay and story for so small a percentage of the player base. You are also in a minority - most players are either motivated by challenging game play in itself, or they don't care very much about it. Sorry.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:41 am

The vast majority of video games have difficulty settings so anyone can play at their own level. It's been a long time since designers made games that were just "here it is, if you're not good enough you'll never see it all".
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:05 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The vast majority of video games have difficulty settings so anyone can play at their own level. It's been a long time since designers made games that were just "here it is, if you're not good enough you'll never see it all".


The vast majority of games also suck with regards to making the balance work for them.and that's just in singleplayer where there's only 1 person, with a game where you have anywhere between 10 to 25 people in a raid it's a lot more difficult to manage.

After the screw ups of BC heroics, Wrath Heroics etc. I am supposed to believe that Blizzard now can handle the balance?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:26 am

Io.Draco wrote:After the screw ups of BC heroics, Wrath Heroics etc. I am supposed to believe that Blizzard now can handle the balance?


On the one hand, Blizzard learns -- and even makes jokes about their failures at their own expense -- such as the Golden Lotus crack during Blizzcon. On the other hand it doesn't matter what you believe.

I'd still like some hard numbers supporting your claim that people quit because of two-tier raiding, or raids too easy, or heroics too hard (easy?). Right now all we have is "population went from 13M to 7M when My Favorite Bugaboo X Happened, therefore X is the cause of all this." This is nonsensical.

I suspect Blizzard has much more solid numbers with regards to account longevity, and what players are doing with their time in-game. I suspect Blizzard has found that as raid participation goes up, so does account longevity.

For all the accounts that were cancelled, it would be interesting to see how much time those accounts spent doing what activities -- number of quests, nodes gathered, dungeons run, PvP participated in, raid bosses killed, raid bosses killed by, and so on.

I suspect Blizzard has these numbers, and is using these numbers to influence their game design.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:49 am

When LFR was added, the main reason they cited was that only about 1% even saw naxx 1.0, only a handful of guilds cleared Sunwell, iow only a very small population of players SAW the content they put out

they wanted people to see and play their hard work.

i am all for heroic only bosses that you have to be good enough to see right away, or even heroic only phases.
it doesnt bother me at all to know the top end guilds got to see Sinestra, Ra-den, or the 4th phase on garrosh right now...
i know if i played better and was more dedicated i could see them as well, or i can wait and do like i did with sinestra this week and go back at a higher level to see the content.

by having the lower difficulty levels, and having them flex, people get to see the content.
by having a set hard mode size, blizz can actually assume that classes will be available and can balance the fights around those mechanics and without the worry of 25 vs 10

keep in the mythic only bosses/phases for those like you Io that WANT the I AM A MYTHIC RAIDER! I DESERVE A UNIGUE FIGHT!
but why cut off everyone else from seeing the work blizzard has done?
just because someone who plays less and/or is not as good at the game sees the fight in LFR, that doesnt take away from your uber hard kill.

i have never understood that arguement
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:12 pm

How about you explain to me then why anyone that's new to the game would ever in their right mind become a normal raider and all that entails.

Fully enchanting, geming gear that you spend weeks to farm in LFR/Timeless Isle, installing over a dozen addons and either configuring them yourself or using someone elee's configuration, spending hours reading up on all the boss tactics, learning to properly use keybinds, having food buff then flask/elixirs and then applying to a guild or several in order to enter.

After having gone through all the effort to get into a NORMAL raiding guild what is the superb reward that I get? Doing the same fucking bosses that I've already done a couple of times in LFR?

EDIT: Oh and let's not forget leveling up your professions to max level.
Last edited by Io.Draco on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:13 pm

Part of the argument is, "If you build it, they will come."

If you have hard, gated content, the user base will self-selectively evolve to become better players in order to see that content. The reason the player base of WoW is so fucking horrible now is they're never developing teeth because they're being fed a steady diet of mush.

In order for the game to get better, the player base also has to be better. The only way to do that is to incentivize them to get better by preventing them from seeing the best content.

Not saying this is Io's only argument, but there's certainly people who feel the same way.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:15 pm

By your standards, then, Diablo III should have been incredibly unpopular.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:18 pm

Io.Draco wrote:After having gone through all the effort to get into a NORMAL raiding guild what is the superb reward that I get? Doing the same fucking bosses that I've already done a couple of times in LFR?


If you don't want the reward, don't go after it. If you don't want to get into a normal raiding guild to kill the same fucking bosses, you're not being forced to.

Take from the game what you want, and enjoy the game the way you want to -- this is one of the core design philosophies behind the game now.

I'm starting to wonder how much disconnect is being caused by Blizzard offering a buffet, when some players are expecting to be served a meticulously structured seven course meal.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:29 pm

Hereby nominating io.Draco for troll of the year award for keeping this argument going this long, despite nearly everyone disagreeing with him, and for utilization of a years-old dead-horse.
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