Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby culhag » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:03 am

Io.Draco wrote:Of course they aren't, I have no real hope they will actually. It's easier for them ( read lazy ) to design only 1 raid with multiple difficulties instead of multiple raids for different players ( casuals, average, hardcore ).

So you'd rather have 3 bosses exclusively for your preferred difficulty, rather than 12 bosses shared on all four difficulties ?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:37 am

Quantity doesn't always equal quality, there's a lot of filler raid bosses. For every one like Lei Shan, Ragnaros, Firefighter and Kael'Thas there's a truckload of bosses like Gorefiend or Azgalor, let alone like Lurker or Void Reaver.

Personally I prefer multiple raid instances with different lore, story, foes and mechanics to deal with but less bosses ( around 6-8 is ideal ).

Sagara: I'd argue that if anything requires some actual effort to be put into it it's a lot more enjoyable then it would be otherwise, a bar of chocolate, a bouncy ball. A raid boss and so on.

To take your metaphor, the bouncy ball is right there, it's right in front of you at the top of a tree. You can get it, but you have to climb the tree to actually reach it.

Of course I'd rather not see a repeat of the Cataclysm launch with it's initial raids: Oh you don't have BiS blue heroic gear, fully gemed and enchanted as well raid wide flasks/elixirs + food and Boss Timers well then GO FUCK YOURSELF SCRUB QQ MORE.

That is a problem, entry level raids like Karazhan are a necessity.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:54 am

Heroic/Mythic-only raids is nothing but a wordy, twisted way of saying "I want my own raid with a NO SCRUBS ALLOWED sign."

Q.E.D., no ifs, no buts. What Blizzard is doing is say: "Here, there are now *FOUR* boucy balls: one that bounces by itself, one that you have to bounce yourself, one that your have to get from the top shelf, and one that stand at the end of this U.S. Army Boot Camp Race. You'll be getting Chocolate, Bronze, Silver and Gold medals depending on the ball you bounce on." And basically every answer we've had so far is:

A) Stop putting easy bouncy balls! I want my bouncy ball to be (more) unique!
B) I want MY bouncy ball to be more special, so stop giving chocolate medals!

What I can get is "Three smaller raids is cooler than one big one" (although I'd argue that SoO was technically three raids that simply followed the same story arc). But that's not Game Design, that's World and Story Design.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:58 am

Well we're getting twelve bosses across two or three raids in WoD's first tier, right?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:18 am

16, 2 raids.

Sagara: Or maybe it would be better if the bouncy balls were made separate instead of all of them being neutered versions of the Gold one. There have always been balance issues with difficulty modes, even from the days of the glorious BC heroics there were issues.

Having different raid instances with different mechanics works better then trying to have a one size fits all mentality for every raid boss which is only going to get worse now that Blizzard has scalable difficulty depending on raid members present.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Paxen » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:33 am

Io.Draco, your problem is that you want to do hard content, but you don't want to do hard content for its own sake - you want to be rewarded with a unique bit of story for facing the hardest challenges.

I can see how that is appealing, and in a vacuum it sounds like a good idea - but Blizzard has decided that it's not in their best interest to devote the amount of resources that's needed to create a raid with its own art, gameplay and story for so small a percentage of the player base. You are also in a minority - most players are either motivated by challenging game play in itself, or they don't care very much about it. Sorry.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:41 am

The vast majority of video games have difficulty settings so anyone can play at their own level. It's been a long time since designers made games that were just "here it is, if you're not good enough you'll never see it all".
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:05 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The vast majority of video games have difficulty settings so anyone can play at their own level. It's been a long time since designers made games that were just "here it is, if you're not good enough you'll never see it all".


The vast majority of games also suck with regards to making the balance work for them.and that's just in singleplayer where there's only 1 person, with a game where you have anywhere between 10 to 25 people in a raid it's a lot more difficult to manage.

After the screw ups of BC heroics, Wrath Heroics etc. I am supposed to believe that Blizzard now can handle the balance?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:26 am

Io.Draco wrote:After the screw ups of BC heroics, Wrath Heroics etc. I am supposed to believe that Blizzard now can handle the balance?


On the one hand, Blizzard learns -- and even makes jokes about their failures at their own expense -- such as the Golden Lotus crack during Blizzcon. On the other hand it doesn't matter what you believe.

I'd still like some hard numbers supporting your claim that people quit because of two-tier raiding, or raids too easy, or heroics too hard (easy?). Right now all we have is "population went from 13M to 7M when My Favorite Bugaboo X Happened, therefore X is the cause of all this." This is nonsensical.

I suspect Blizzard has much more solid numbers with regards to account longevity, and what players are doing with their time in-game. I suspect Blizzard has found that as raid participation goes up, so does account longevity.

For all the accounts that were cancelled, it would be interesting to see how much time those accounts spent doing what activities -- number of quests, nodes gathered, dungeons run, PvP participated in, raid bosses killed, raid bosses killed by, and so on.

I suspect Blizzard has these numbers, and is using these numbers to influence their game design.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:49 am

When LFR was added, the main reason they cited was that only about 1% even saw naxx 1.0, only a handful of guilds cleared Sunwell, iow only a very small population of players SAW the content they put out

they wanted people to see and play their hard work.

i am all for heroic only bosses that you have to be good enough to see right away, or even heroic only phases.
it doesnt bother me at all to know the top end guilds got to see Sinestra, Ra-den, or the 4th phase on garrosh right now...
i know if i played better and was more dedicated i could see them as well, or i can wait and do like i did with sinestra this week and go back at a higher level to see the content.

by having the lower difficulty levels, and having them flex, people get to see the content.
by having a set hard mode size, blizz can actually assume that classes will be available and can balance the fights around those mechanics and without the worry of 25 vs 10

keep in the mythic only bosses/phases for those like you Io that WANT the I AM A MYTHIC RAIDER! I DESERVE A UNIGUE FIGHT!
but why cut off everyone else from seeing the work blizzard has done?
just because someone who plays less and/or is not as good at the game sees the fight in LFR, that doesnt take away from your uber hard kill.

i have never understood that arguement
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:12 pm

How about you explain to me then why anyone that's new to the game would ever in their right mind become a normal raider and all that entails.

Fully enchanting, geming gear that you spend weeks to farm in LFR/Timeless Isle, installing over a dozen addons and either configuring them yourself or using someone elee's configuration, spending hours reading up on all the boss tactics, learning to properly use keybinds, having food buff then flask/elixirs and then applying to a guild or several in order to enter.

After having gone through all the effort to get into a NORMAL raiding guild what is the superb reward that I get? Doing the same fucking bosses that I've already done a couple of times in LFR?

EDIT: Oh and let's not forget leveling up your professions to max level.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:13 pm

Part of the argument is, "If you build it, they will come."

If you have hard, gated content, the user base will self-selectively evolve to become better players in order to see that content. The reason the player base of WoW is so fucking horrible now is they're never developing teeth because they're being fed a steady diet of mush.

In order for the game to get better, the player base also has to be better. The only way to do that is to incentivize them to get better by preventing them from seeing the best content.

Not saying this is Io's only argument, but there's certainly people who feel the same way.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:15 pm

By your standards, then, Diablo III should have been incredibly unpopular.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:18 pm

Io.Draco wrote:After having gone through all the effort to get into a NORMAL raiding guild what is the superb reward that I get? Doing the same fucking bosses that I've already done a couple of times in LFR?


If you don't want the reward, don't go after it. If you don't want to get into a normal raiding guild to kill the same fucking bosses, you're not being forced to.

Take from the game what you want, and enjoy the game the way you want to -- this is one of the core design philosophies behind the game now.

I'm starting to wonder how much disconnect is being caused by Blizzard offering a buffet, when some players are expecting to be served a meticulously structured seven course meal.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:29 pm

Hereby nominating io.Draco for troll of the year award for keeping this argument going this long, despite nearly everyone disagreeing with him, and for utilization of a years-old dead-horse.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:31 pm

halabar wrote:Hereby nominating io.Draco for troll of the year award for keeping this argument going this long, despite nearly everyone disagreeing with him, and for utilization of a years-old dead-horse.


I am not a troll, I am a Paladin Burning Crusade Paladin Main Tank, AKA a stubborn asshole who has a thick skin.

I find this thread useful, allowing me to refine my arguments that I will then use on the Blizzard forums.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:40 pm

And where your arguments fail is that your ideas seem to be based on limitless resources, and you make assumptions based on perceived numbers that only Blizz has access to. If Blizz were to triple their staff, sure, produce a heroic only raid, but what would the monthly sub be then?

Or to put it another way, as a casual raider who may dabble in heroics, I don't want my sub paying for and exclusive heroic only raid that I'll never see. :lol:
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:04 pm

To take a more friendly approach, here's to hoping you'll realize heroic-only content above and beyond "bonus" bosses is counter-productive for Blizzard on a production PoV (good dollar spend on less seen content), and on a subs PoV (because less content for the average Joe Schmoe makes Joe unsub. And for every you and me, there *hundreds* of Joes).

Now, taking GC/Metzen's shoes for a while, I'd want to push for more organized raiding, like you do. But not the way you plan it. What I believe are decent battleplans for those objectives are:

* Bonus content for higher-end raiding à la Algalon/Sinestra/Ra-den, or the special phases of Ragnaros/Sha of Fear/Garrosh. The Heirloom weapons was a nice idea too.
* Never a single raid in a raid patch, if at all possible. Or at the very least two or more very different "styles" during that raid patch (see SoO between Sha of Pride and Galakras). This may help reduce burnout, but I'd keep that plan low on my priority - fairly expensive for a "maybe" effect.
* Make the structural aspect of organized raiding as simple as possible, so that jumping from LFR to guild raiding is as easy as finding a friendly guild that will help you help yourself. In other words, that the only obstacle to organized raiding is finding the will and finding the guild with a timeframe appropriate to yours.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:46 pm

for the most part i agree with Sagara..

im all for high end only content
im all for the better gear coming from higher difficulties

i personally love the change in SoO between sha of pride and galakras, and the similar one (albeit to a lesser extent) between the wings in ToT
you had the troll bosses, the beast bosses, the servant/construct bosses, and the mogu leadership bosses - same instance but different boss types for the most part
i hope they keep that coming, or (better imo) do like they are planning for WoD launch and did for MoP launch and have multiple raid instances

as far as the organized raiding, they are doing that for the most part.
there is no set 10 or 25man size except mythic, so for people like me with just 10 man (currently normal) teams, we can easily accomidate someone we want to have join us.
and the new normal and heroic difficulties means if someone does want to switch to guild from LFR raiding it isnt as big a jump.
they get to see the fights a bit harder, if that isnt enough for them they can jump to what at least i am raiding now and have fights be a bit harder still, and if they are truly dedicated, what is stopping them from trying to get in a mythic guild?


as for the new players wanting to switch to guild raiding, and why they would....well i think a bit could be why i switched from pugs to guild raiding

having a group of people that you can somewhat depend on, and can develop a rapport with, helps immensely with progression, and imo overall fun raiding.
i HATE lfr anymore...i do it on alts mostly to work on their legendary quest chain, or to gear them up so i can bring them in during pug flex raids my guild runs when i dont need anything on my raiding main from that wing (and i am not needed as a tank)


WoW has 7mill+ subs....
how many of those raid, even LFr..
and how many of those raiders are heroic/mythic raiders?
they are a very small percentage of the over all player base.
blizzard has to appease the masses and not just cater to the ultra hard core elite
there was an interveiw several months ago where ..i think it was ghostcrawler..said the average wow subscriber doesnt even have a lvl 90 yet

i would love to see more heroic/mythic only bosses/phases because i do agree that those that put in the extra work deserve a little extra, besides being among the first in the world to see the content and better gear.
but i dont think that should come at the expense of other content...content that those that do not raid period would do and keep paying subs for.
i dont know about every one else that raids, but i dont play wow just for the raiding...i also do a bunch of stuff outside of raiding.
i have alts, i level pets, i use my professions, sometimes i just go run around a zone exploring, and seeing if i can find cool areas, like the fairie ring in the undead starting area, or the abandoned camp overran with bears north of gnomer, or the goblin fishing cabin on the coast of dun morough, or the gnome sheep farmer with a mechanic sheep northeast of SW...just weird little places like that.

you get less of those side activites, you get less casual players
less casual players = less money incoming to blizzard
less money for blizz = less money to pay for the raiding i love to do, and esp less money to pay for the heroic only content...
so if it comes down to mythic only raids, or multiple difficulties of raids...or appeasing some scrub that only gives a shit about seeing the content once and on the piss poor excuse of a fight that is LFR...
appease the scrub, as long as they pay their sub same as me and helps pay for the stuff I like to do in game.

pvp-ers can pvp to their hearts content, pet battlers can level and battle their pets, farmers can farm..and raiders can raid.
who cares what other people do as long as it doesnt affect/hinder what you want to do in game and as long as what you want to do isnt affecting/hindering what others want to do
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:11 pm

On the subject of side activities and the number of developers that would be required to make 3 different raids per tier for different types of raiders..well I would argue that since Blizzard is promoting how they have such a large dev team for Warlords they should prove it.

Now someone earlier mentioned to me how the BC model was unsustainable, I'd argue that current model Blizzard has where they are constantly spamming all kinds of content to keep players interested is a lot more unsustainable then that.

I would like to point out that making more raids but with only one difficulty mode for each may actually be easier then making a raid with 4 difficulty levels. How many bosses does SoO have atm? 14.

I doubt that making 4 extra bosses, if say they were making 3 different raids with 6 bosses each, would actually require that many more developers then current raids right now.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:44 pm

you would also need new art and story leading into the other raids, hopefully new models, and other things that the "devs" dont have anything to do with.

there is also the need for 4 more fights, with different mechanics, different boss arenas, more trash (hopefully they learned from the ToC debacle) and such

now, 14 fights, 1 lfr with a few mechanics missing and numbers lowered, 2 flex size, with numbers adjusting, and one mythic with higher numbers and more mechanics...which is what they do now, all of which will be seen by anyone who raids (at least on LFR)

with your style, 3 different zones, with lore and art leading into them, 6 different bosses with hopefully different mechanics, possibly 18 different models (god forbid they use an old model!) all seen by fewer and fewer people..which goes against stated goals of letting people see content
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:26 pm

Goddamn, I thought one of the perks of being a paladin tank is the ability to adapt to the situation.

Must fall apart into a blithering mess when raid shit goes imperfectly, causing a wipe.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:40 pm

Amirya wrote:Goddamn, I thought one of the perks of being a paladin tank is the ability to adapt to the situation.

Must fall apart into a blithering mess when raid shit goes imperfectly, causing a wipe.

that explains so much about our raiding last expansion...oh wait you said tank not medic..sorry :P
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Incalcando » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:46 pm

I don't understand this guy. Somehow the game needs exclusive heroic mode instances not accessible to other difficulties? And that is good for the game how? Allowing people to be able to clear the content in 4 different difficulties while giving appropriately better loot the harder you go thus rewarding you greatly, is a bad thing? Is it a bad thing that the game ALSO caters to players who don't want to invest the effort that hardcore raiding requires, WITHOUT taking ANYTHING away from the hardcore crowd?

Just get over yourself, ok TBC provided great content for the hardcore raiding crowd and nobody else. MoP provides great content for everyone, without taking anything away from the competitiveness of hardcore raiding. If anything, boss tuning has been the best there ever was in WoW for heroic modes... I don't think we saw a better expansion than MoP for the hardcore crowd content-wise. And so far for every tier's endboss we got an exclusive heroic-mode only phase or a heroic-mode only boss. That's already quite a lot just to reward a tiny fraction of the raiders, who in turn don't even make the majority of WoW's playerbase...

Now if your idea for good hardcore content is that nobody else can see the story and the bosses, not even in a lower difficulty with SIGNIFICANTLY worse rewards, then I really don't know what's wrong with you.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:46 pm

Io.Draco wrote:On the subject of side activities and the number of developers that would be required to make 3 different raids per tier for different types of raiders..well I would argue that since Blizzard is promoting how they have such a large dev team for Warlords they should prove it.

Now someone earlier mentioned to me how the BC model was unsustainable, I'd argue that current model Blizzard has where they are constantly spamming all kinds of content to keep players interested is a lot more unsustainable then that.

I would like to point out that making more raids but with only one difficulty mode for each may actually be easier then making a raid with 4 difficulty levels. How many bosses does SoO have atm? 14.

I doubt that making 4 extra bosses, if say they were making 3 different raids with 6 bosses each, would actually require that many more developers then current raids right now.


You really have no idea of the resources required.

And on top, now you want to take resources away from the rest of the development effort to make your "I want to feel special raid".

Please stop...
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