Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby theckhd » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:10 am

Lieris wrote:I think that having a second flex difficulty is redundant that's all and having 4+ tiers of loot isn't very healthy for the game. Just make the first few bosses easy and use targeted nerfs on problem bosses/abilities and do something to lock out Mythic raiders from flex or make it not worth their while otherwise people will burn out.

Except that doesn't actually work as well. I know several guilds that are literally progressing through Flex. They can't handle normal difficulty, but they also don't enjoy the LFR "experience." Your solution would have them stuck with the first 2-3 bosses to kill for the majority of a tier (see, for example, Horridon, which killed a lot of 10-man casual guilds). The data suggests that those players just quit.

I'm also not sure what you're basing your argument about 4+ tiers of loot on. Saying that something "isn't very healthy" for the game is fairly meaningless because it's so vague. What problems specifically do you think it causes that cannot be fixed by choosing item levels intelligently?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:48 am


Having 4 difficulty modes makes perfect sense, actually. I play this game very differently than a friends & family guild does. If heroic mythic raiding was the only option, WoW would have suffered a much steeper decline than it already has. Ideally, there's an appropriate difficulty level for everyone, such that each raid team can pick an appropriate challenge to progress through.


Personally I would prefer if there were multiple raids per tier with different difficulties instead of the current model were we generally get only 1 raid per tier but with multiple difficulty levels.

So say we get one raid that's as difficulty as current flex raiding, with the scaling from flex depending on number of people introduced there as well, another one that's as difficult as current normal and the third and final one that's as hard as current heroic. All of these raids would be in different areas, have different bosses and with different story and lore to them.

As for LFR, remove it and replace the gearing process with normal dungeons and heroic dungeons.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:59 am

Honestly speaking I don't fancy the idea of having to run the same dungeons over and over again like I have done in wotlk/cata.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:12 am

Is doing LFR over and over again any better though? It's just as tedious and boring as having to run Wrath/BC heroics over and over again, and the atmosphere in LFR is just so toxic.

Blizzard has talked about giving you gear through the world, so maybe that's a solution as well with chests and rare mobs. Timeless Isle is broken because there's too many people there!
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:21 am

LFR at least gives some sort of challenge and gameplay, while 5 men are essentially just roll face on keyboard without anything to do at all.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:59 am

That is indeed true right now but Blizzard could always make them challenging or at least in such a way that you can't just aoe everything down, they have promised that Heroics will actually be more difficult in Warlords.

I am not holding my breath for initial Cataclysm let alone BC difficulty, although it would be nice, but at least hopefully the facerolling aoe spamming nonsense get's rid off.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:32 am

Autoscaling tech might be great if they implement it properly. With people 100 ilvl higher than heroic dungeons now it's just kind of stupid. Having, say, optional content that scales along with you that rewards proportionately stronger loot would make it worthwhile -- the harder the content and higher the scale, the higher the ilvl reward.

You could completely replace LFR as a gearing path with this, by boosting friends through high ilvl dungeons to gear them out. It would be challenging and probably a lot more rewarding and fun than the other options.

But, as the devs have stated over and over and over again, a gearing path is only one of the reasons behind LFR. I think their other motivations are reasonable enough. I don't agree with Io's continued insistence that there be large amounts of "content" available to only a vanishingly small percentage of people. Heroic-only bosses are okay and don't have a huge opportunity cost. Entire raids less so -- hard to justify the time and expense of creating new art assets, mechanics etc. to give a few thousand people something to do.

Thinking of scaling it might be interesting if they went in the completely opposite direction and scaled raid wings all the way down to 5 man (heroic) difficulty (scaling down ilvl as well, ofc).
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Teranoid » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:22 am

Io.Draco wrote:That is indeed true right now but Blizzard could always make them challenging or at least in such a way that you can't just aoe everything down, they have promised that Heroics will actually be more difficult in Warlords.

I am not holding my breath for initial Cataclysm let alone BC difficulty, although it would be nice, but at least hopefully the facerolling aoe spamming nonsense get's rid off.


It is hilarious that you still do not get it.

Let me spell this out:

Easier difficulty increases accessibility
Increased accessibility means more people playing your game for longer
More people playing for longer means more $$$
More money is the point of being a business.

Tl;dr Stop whining about the "good old days". They're not coming back.

They're not going to change and go back to all that bullshit with Cata heroic difficulty just because a minority with an over-inflated self worth in a video game of all things starts crying about how this game isn't the same as it was 6 years ago.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Lieris » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:19 pm

theckhd wrote:
Lieris wrote:I think that having a second flex difficulty is redundant that's all and having 4+ tiers of loot isn't very healthy for the game. Just make the first few bosses easy and use targeted nerfs on problem bosses/abilities and do something to lock out Mythic raiders from flex or make it not worth their while otherwise people will burn out.

Except that doesn't actually work as well. I know several guilds that are literally progressing through Flex. They can't handle normal difficulty, but they also don't enjoy the LFR "experience." Your solution would have them stuck with the first 2-3 bosses to kill for the majority of a tier (see, for example, Horridon, which killed a lot of 10-man casual guilds). The data suggests that those players just quit.


Horridon killed a lot of 10 man guilds because it was poorly tuned and wasn't nerfed soon enough. I am suggesting easy intro bosses and sensible timely targeted nerfs especially when it's obvious that a boss is a brick wall when it shouldn't be one, for example one being so early in the instance that it can't be out-geared. There's no reason to have two flex difficulties if done correctly.

I'm also not sure what you're basing your argument about 4+ tiers of loot on. Saying that something "isn't very healthy" for the game is fairly meaningless because it's so vague. What problems specifically do you think it causes that cannot be fixed by choosing item levels intelligently?


Item inflation (we'll see how well the squish deals with this) and there being a gulf between the players doing the lowest and highest difficulties making it harder for players to make the step up from LFR to Mythic. Also while there will always be guild hopping, I think this encourages it and a lot of normal mode flex guilds will end up acting as feeder guilds for heroic mode flex guilds (who don't face the same problem because not everyone wants to do 20m raiding at a high difficulty).
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:34 pm

I don't agree with Io's continued insistence that there be large amounts of "content" available to only a vanishingly small percentage of people.


Maybe there would be more people interested in hardcore raiding if there was a reason for it besides difficulty.

They're not going to change


Of course they aren't, I have no real hope they will actually. It's easier for them ( read lazy ) to design only 1 raid with multiple difficulties instead of multiple raids for different players ( casuals, average, hardcore ).

We'll see how long WoW lasts if another MMO manages to come out and actually do things right, which none so far have and there is a real chance none will.

Easier difficulty increases accessibility
Increased accessibility means more people playing your game for longer
More people playing for longer means more $$$
More money is the point of being a business.


Care to back that up with some evidence? Because funnily enough it seems to me that ever since Blizzard has adopted the very model you are talking about they have been losing subs.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Teranoid » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:54 pm

If you're implying that having exclusive difficulty levels accessible by next to none of the playerbase would actually keep subscribers you're a bigger idiot than you've already proven yourself to be.

Please do us all a favor and go back to whatever forum you were shitposting in before you found this thread.

Thanks.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby oldboyz » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:34 am

Teranoid..

it is not about the qualilty/intel of your arguments
it is just i don't like the way you answer to other people, you look to me like a child playing torquemada.

i've to let you know i don't allow you to speak in my name. YOU DON'T OWN THIS FORUM
i just wish a moderator should be able to ban you for a while until you calm down


please, do us all a favor, go eat your soup, do your homework, teeth, and go to bed. thanks
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Nooska » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:07 am

oldboyz wrote:Teranoid..

it is not about the qualilty/intel of your arguments
it is just i don't like the way you answer to other people, you look to me like a child playing torquemada.

i've to let you know i don't allow you to speak in my name. YOU DON'T OWN THIS FORUM
i just wish a moderator should be able to ban you for a while until you calm down


please, do us all a favor, go eat your soup, do your homework, teeth, and go to bed. thanks

While you have a point about the attitude/language use in som eof teranoids posts, this one is no better than what you are calling tera out for.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:18 am

I'll add that I'm surprised you haven't made use of the "Report" button that is available on every post.

I'll add that currently the only things I'm seeing being offered as an alternative to Blizzard's solution is:

-Remove LFR/FLex/Whatever in all or in part
-Reduce the rewards LFR/Flex gets

Which is basically grabbing Blizzard's bouncy ball and saying "You can't have it!!", never realising that if not enough kids play with the bouncy ball, they won't buy another one when this one gets too old.

Or, to put it less mildly: "The exact same bad ideas we get every patch since 4.3" (TM)
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Ruldar » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:01 am

oldboyz wrote:Teranoid..

it is not about the qualilty/intel of your arguments
it is just i don't like the way you answer to other people, you look to me like a child playing torquemada.

i've to let you know i don't allow you to speak in my name. YOU DON'T OWN THIS FORUM
i just wish a moderator should be able to ban you for a while until you calm down


please, do us all a favor, go eat your soup, do your homework, teeth, and go to bed. thanks


You must have missed the various forum mods also participating in this thread and arguing with Draco, one of which has used similar language as Teranoid just did.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby culhag » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:03 am

Io.Draco wrote:Of course they aren't, I have no real hope they will actually. It's easier for them ( read lazy ) to design only 1 raid with multiple difficulties instead of multiple raids for different players ( casuals, average, hardcore ).

So you'd rather have 3 bosses exclusively for your preferred difficulty, rather than 12 bosses shared on all four difficulties ?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:37 am

Quantity doesn't always equal quality, there's a lot of filler raid bosses. For every one like Lei Shan, Ragnaros, Firefighter and Kael'Thas there's a truckload of bosses like Gorefiend or Azgalor, let alone like Lurker or Void Reaver.

Personally I prefer multiple raid instances with different lore, story, foes and mechanics to deal with but less bosses ( around 6-8 is ideal ).

Sagara: I'd argue that if anything requires some actual effort to be put into it it's a lot more enjoyable then it would be otherwise, a bar of chocolate, a bouncy ball. A raid boss and so on.

To take your metaphor, the bouncy ball is right there, it's right in front of you at the top of a tree. You can get it, but you have to climb the tree to actually reach it.

Of course I'd rather not see a repeat of the Cataclysm launch with it's initial raids: Oh you don't have BiS blue heroic gear, fully gemed and enchanted as well raid wide flasks/elixirs + food and Boss Timers well then GO FUCK YOURSELF SCRUB QQ MORE.

That is a problem, entry level raids like Karazhan are a necessity.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:54 am

Heroic/Mythic-only raids is nothing but a wordy, twisted way of saying "I want my own raid with a NO SCRUBS ALLOWED sign."

Q.E.D., no ifs, no buts. What Blizzard is doing is say: "Here, there are now *FOUR* boucy balls: one that bounces by itself, one that you have to bounce yourself, one that your have to get from the top shelf, and one that stand at the end of this U.S. Army Boot Camp Race. You'll be getting Chocolate, Bronze, Silver and Gold medals depending on the ball you bounce on." And basically every answer we've had so far is:

A) Stop putting easy bouncy balls! I want my bouncy ball to be (more) unique!
B) I want MY bouncy ball to be more special, so stop giving chocolate medals!

What I can get is "Three smaller raids is cooler than one big one" (although I'd argue that SoO was technically three raids that simply followed the same story arc). But that's not Game Design, that's World and Story Design.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:58 am

Well we're getting twelve bosses across two or three raids in WoD's first tier, right?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:18 am

16, 2 raids.

Sagara: Or maybe it would be better if the bouncy balls were made separate instead of all of them being neutered versions of the Gold one. There have always been balance issues with difficulty modes, even from the days of the glorious BC heroics there were issues.

Having different raid instances with different mechanics works better then trying to have a one size fits all mentality for every raid boss which is only going to get worse now that Blizzard has scalable difficulty depending on raid members present.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Paxen » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:33 am

Io.Draco, your problem is that you want to do hard content, but you don't want to do hard content for its own sake - you want to be rewarded with a unique bit of story for facing the hardest challenges.

I can see how that is appealing, and in a vacuum it sounds like a good idea - but Blizzard has decided that it's not in their best interest to devote the amount of resources that's needed to create a raid with its own art, gameplay and story for so small a percentage of the player base. You are also in a minority - most players are either motivated by challenging game play in itself, or they don't care very much about it. Sorry.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:41 am

The vast majority of video games have difficulty settings so anyone can play at their own level. It's been a long time since designers made games that were just "here it is, if you're not good enough you'll never see it all".
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:05 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The vast majority of video games have difficulty settings so anyone can play at their own level. It's been a long time since designers made games that were just "here it is, if you're not good enough you'll never see it all".


The vast majority of games also suck with regards to making the balance work for them.and that's just in singleplayer where there's only 1 person, with a game where you have anywhere between 10 to 25 people in a raid it's a lot more difficult to manage.

After the screw ups of BC heroics, Wrath Heroics etc. I am supposed to believe that Blizzard now can handle the balance?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:26 am

Io.Draco wrote:After the screw ups of BC heroics, Wrath Heroics etc. I am supposed to believe that Blizzard now can handle the balance?


On the one hand, Blizzard learns -- and even makes jokes about their failures at their own expense -- such as the Golden Lotus crack during Blizzcon. On the other hand it doesn't matter what you believe.

I'd still like some hard numbers supporting your claim that people quit because of two-tier raiding, or raids too easy, or heroics too hard (easy?). Right now all we have is "population went from 13M to 7M when My Favorite Bugaboo X Happened, therefore X is the cause of all this." This is nonsensical.

I suspect Blizzard has much more solid numbers with regards to account longevity, and what players are doing with their time in-game. I suspect Blizzard has found that as raid participation goes up, so does account longevity.

For all the accounts that were cancelled, it would be interesting to see how much time those accounts spent doing what activities -- number of quests, nodes gathered, dungeons run, PvP participated in, raid bosses killed, raid bosses killed by, and so on.

I suspect Blizzard has these numbers, and is using these numbers to influence their game design.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:49 am

When LFR was added, the main reason they cited was that only about 1% even saw naxx 1.0, only a handful of guilds cleared Sunwell, iow only a very small population of players SAW the content they put out

they wanted people to see and play their hard work.

i am all for heroic only bosses that you have to be good enough to see right away, or even heroic only phases.
it doesnt bother me at all to know the top end guilds got to see Sinestra, Ra-den, or the 4th phase on garrosh right now...
i know if i played better and was more dedicated i could see them as well, or i can wait and do like i did with sinestra this week and go back at a higher level to see the content.

by having the lower difficulty levels, and having them flex, people get to see the content.
by having a set hard mode size, blizz can actually assume that classes will be available and can balance the fights around those mechanics and without the worry of 25 vs 10

keep in the mythic only bosses/phases for those like you Io that WANT the I AM A MYTHIC RAIDER! I DESERVE A UNIGUE FIGHT!
but why cut off everyone else from seeing the work blizzard has done?
just because someone who plays less and/or is not as good at the game sees the fight in LFR, that doesnt take away from your uber hard kill.

i have never understood that arguement
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