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Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby lythac » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:49 pm

Pick the expansion you had most fun in/progressed in and slate the next one for ruining the game.

Io.Draco wrote:The player base changed really? Or did the game change with Wrath? Many hardcore raiders either gave up or stopped giving a shit about raiding ever since Wrath came out.


The game changed with TBC -

Small and tiny raid sizes, going from 40 man raids to Karazhans 10 man is just a joke. 25 man raids weren't much better, catering for casuals who couldn't manage 50+ raiding players to field 40 man teams. Please these 25 mans that we have today aren't proper raids, they are shadows of themselves, my screen looks empty of players.

Free epics through badges. LOL TBC hands out gear for no skill.

Free BiS epics thorugh crafting. Remember those cloth sets that people were using into BT/MH. In Vanilla you had to raid for gear, not simply craft it.

TBC killed the game, catering to casuals.

If you think the game changed with Wrath you are probably a TBC baby. Most of the hardcore raiders left at the end of Vanilla.



But really the game changes with every expansion, there are negatives with each regarding raiding but over time it is heading in the right direction. Too early to say for WoD.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Paxen » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:18 pm

lythac wrote:The game changed with TBC -


:lol: where's the like button
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:23 pm

Paxen wrote:
lythac wrote:The game changed with TBC -


:lol: where's the like button

for his whole post! :lol:
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Incalcando » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:51 pm

lythac wrote:Pick the expansion you had most fun in/progressed in and slate the next one for ruining the game.

Io.Draco wrote:The player base changed really? Or did the game change with Wrath? Many hardcore raiders either gave up or stopped giving a shit about raiding ever since Wrath came out.


The game changed with TBC -

Small and tiny raid sizes, going from 40 man raids to Karazhans 10 man is just a joke. 25 man raids weren't much better, catering for casuals who couldn't manage 50+ raiding players to field 40 man teams. Please these 25 mans that we have today aren't proper raids, they are shadows of themselves, my screen looks empty of players.

Free epics through badges. LOL TBC hands out gear for no skill.

Free BiS epics thorugh crafting. Remember those cloth sets that people were using into BT/MH. In Vanilla you had to raid for gear, not simply craft it.

TBC killed the game, catering to casuals.

If you think the game changed with Wrath you are probably a TBC baby. Most of the hardcore raiders left at the end of Vanilla.



But really the game changes with every expansion, there are negatives with each regarding raiding but over time it is heading in the right direction. Too early to say for WoD.


Thanks for that post.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Shamora » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:21 pm

Incalcando wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:
Repeat after me.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.


Oh absolutely I must have just imagined the thousands upon thousands of BT/MH/SWP raiders quitting after Wrath came along right? Absolutely!

If you have another real argument then please go ahead and offer it for why sub numbers stagnated throughout Wrath, I would be very eager to hear it.


Please name me a game that has continued to grow their playerbase throughout a 10-year span. [snip]


While I certainly agree with you I just wanted to point out that Eve Online is ten years old and still goin up in subs.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:27 am

lythac: Oh absolutely it changed, going from 20 man raids like ZG and AQ20 to 10 man raids like Karazhan and ZA. Then switching over from 40 man raids to 25 man raids. I also started playing in Vanilla thank you very much.

The difference between vanilla and BC was that raids were harder in BC then they ever were in Vanilla, and a lot more complex to boot, also there was less BS in terms of having to do bosses like Onyxia/Hakkar to get world buffs if you wanted to progress through Naxx/AQ 40 C'thun, oh and let's not forget the farming of materials for usage in flasks + elixirs + food.

As for the "Free Epics" from badges, perhaps you would care to remember the difficulty of heroic dungeons in BC that gave you only a couple of items at the badge vendor until ZA added a whole bunch of them?

Finally with regards to crafted items, you say that as if Vanilla did not have them! Right.

The difference between Vanilla to TBC is that TBC Naxx raiders had to content with bosses like Nightbane, Magtheridon, Al'Ar, Hydross, Vashj and Kael'Thas at launch while TBC raiders in the initial launch of Wrath had to content themselves with bosses like...Sartharion and to a degree Malygos.

Cataclysm screwed up by not having a Karazhan like raid. Wrath screwed up by having Naxx 2.0, which didn't work because the mechanics of Naxx had been tailored to the class mechanics and balance of Vanilla.

Pick the expansion you had most fun in/progressed in and slate the next one for ruining the game.


Ah but there is that tendency isn't it? From Wrath babies complaining about their glory days being lost to Vanilla players complaining about the reduction in scale of their raids, to TBC players complaining about the loss of a challenge in Wrath.

That said, given the numbers, I am of the belief that most Vanilla players and even hardcore raiders did appreciate the changes done in TBC. Oh sure some complained and quit but most stayed, which is what led to the success of TBC since more people became active subscribers.

Then there is Wrath where many BC SWP/BT/MH raiders left but were replaced by new players which in turn managed to prevent a decline in subs in Wrath. Then there is Cataclysm: A good start then a steady decline.

Then finally MoP, a brief resurgence of subs then decay once again.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:11 am

I'd disagree. The sub has been quite stable for several years now, always hanging around 8kk (bit less now).

Remember WoW still has a playerbase larger than every other western MMO combined.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Kelerei » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:20 am

I definitely don't believe that correlation causes causation here. A lot of people in this thread are claiming that the various changes to the raiding scene is the primary reason for the decline in subscriber numbers, but raiders are only a small proportion of the player population, and current heroic (future mythic) raiders are a small proportion of the aforesaid small proportion. Most of the player base isn't really bothered in raiding -- case in point, my two housemates play WoW, but one is an altoholic who only occassionally steps into LFR (and only if I'm available to tank it for him!), while the other focusses on out-of-the-way achievements (Loremaster, cooking meta achievement, that kind of thing) and doesn't even bother with LFR, let alone our weekly guild flexi run.

There's plenty of reasons why one may quit the game: being on the wrong side of a PvP server faction imbalance, dailies are too grindy, dailies aren't grindy enough, heroic dungeons giving "welfare" epics, not enough heroic dungeons any more and Y U MAEK ME RUN TEH SCENARIOS OH NOES FU IM QUITTING, server economies... the list can go on. And with the community as large and as diverse as it is, Blizzard can't please everyone. Understand that for every reason why someone might quit, that same reason could be why someone else might stay, and vice versa.

Also, saying that <insert-expansion-after-your-favourite-one> killed raiding is a bit nonsensical. It may have killed your perfect idea of raiding, and that may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some people, but others will carry on raiding, and new people will start raiding.

The thing is: both the player base and the game itself is evolving. In fact, one could take Darwin's theory of evolution, and apply it here: as the game changes, some players will evolve with the changes, some will be unable to and will die out, and some changes will create new players. (And of course, it goes the other way: Blizzard has to react to shifts in their player base, and the expectations of said player base.) So long as Blizzard doesn't do something analogous to the various world extinction events (e.g. they let Worldie near the game servers), this is quite normal.

Anyway, that's enough rambling about player subs from me. Now, on to the raiding difficulties...

I can't comment on the heroic to mythic change, as I'm not really an heroic raider: we aim to clear normal before the next raiding tier, and maybe dabble with some heroic bosses if there's time before the next tier came out (Dragon Soul being an exception: due to the length of that tier, we got 6/8 heroic bosses down before MoP, and we knocked off the last two while we were all still levelling to 90). At the moment, we have two 10-man groups both progressing at a respectable rate through SoO (both groups are 8/14, though my group has had some pulls on Malkorok while the others haven't yet). What will likely happen for us in Warlords of Draenor is that these groups will continue to operate as they are now, but will be aiming to clear the "new" heroic modes before the next tier. We probably won't be dabbling with mythic, because this would require us to merge the two groups, and as they operate autonomously from each other (differing schedules, loot systems, etc.), it's probably not worth the hassle for us to do so (I'm guild leader, so I'm already thinking about how we're going to approach this!). Though, having to think about this, I can imagine what the current 10-man heroic groups are dealing with.

I can understand Blizzard's reason for the changes: on heroic, some fights are more advantageous on 10-man than on 25-man, and vice versa. (Going back to Dragon Soul again, I could see a 25-man group having an easier time on heroic Hagara than a 10-man group, with the opposite being true for heroic Ultraxion.) It would make encounter design a lot easier, perhaps make mythic a bit more challenging, plus have the side-effect of ending the 10 vs 25 debate for once and all. That said, it will be a big adjustment for current heroic raiders, but they'll have plenty of time to decide what they're going to do and prepare for those changes. It's the whole evolution theory thing again: some will embrace the changes and adapt to them, others will dislike them and discontinue. There's nothing wrong with either side of the fence here.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Winkle » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:24 am

There is no precedence for a game of WoWs size, longevity and playerbase. It would be naieve to think Blizzard ever imagined a playerbase of over 10m, or a player base of 7.6m some 10 years after release.

The simple fact is WoW has been incredibly successful and thus someone at Blizzard clearly does know what they're doing.

Your aregument Io.Draco that the changes to the raiding content in anyway reflect the size of the playerbase are completely unsubstantiated and cannot be proven in any reasonable way.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Paxen » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:40 am

The crowning argument for fixed 20-man size for me is that they'll bring back stuff like spellstealing on Maulgar and MC on Razuvius. I'm only sad that I'll only see what they come up with in gimped form in the flex modes.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Flex » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:45 am

Paxen wrote:The crowning argument for fixed 20-man size for me is that they'll bring back stuff like spellstealing on Maulgar and MC on Razuvius. I'm only sad that I'll only see what they come up with in gimped form in the flex modes.


Lore posted an explanation of their reasoning and that was a big factor, brining those mechanics back.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Lieris » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:57 pm

I will preface this by saying that I appreciate you are being tongue in cheek but I don't think anyone can make a credible argument for TBC being more casual than Classic unless stacking world buffs and insane consumable requirements counts as being hardcore. Likewise Cataclysm 10m Heroic being completely impossible for months did not make it hardcore, it made it stupid.

lythac wrote:Small and tiny raid sizes, going from 40 man raids to Karazhans 10 man is just a joke. 25 man raids weren't much better, catering for casuals who couldn't manage 50+ raiding players to field 40 man teams. Please these 25 mans that we have today aren't proper raids, they are shadows of themselves, my screen looks empty of players.


Only Naxx 40 is comparable to the difficulty of pre-nerf Karazhan and Gruul's Lair. I think most guilds were happy to prune the slackers from their raids and every expansion means people quitting anyway.

The real problem was the squish to 10 players then back up to 25.

Free epics through badges. LOL TBC hands out gear for no skill.


Only heroic dungeons dropped badges initially and they were hard. You couldn't deck out a character in badge gear anyway even after 2.4. The Sunwell badge gear was added to give players in T4 and T5 a hand up with 3-4 BT quality items with sometimes questionable itemisation (questionable looks too for the paladin tanking legs).

Free BiS epics thorugh crafting. Remember those cloth sets that people were using into BT/MH. In Vanilla you had to raid for gear, not simply craft it.


One of the cloth sets has no stamina on it and the rest did't have much either. If you weren't replacing them with T5 you were doing it wrong.

The BS weapons needed raiding materials to be upgraded.

I don't see the problem with having craftables that are effective in raids. It's better than the current situation.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Lieris » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:05 pm

Paxen wrote:The crowning argument for fixed 20-man size for me is that they'll bring back stuff like spellstealing on Maulgar and MC on Razuvius. I'm only sad that I'll only see what they come up with in gimped form in the flex modes.


I think this is fantastic news, Mythic sounds like a really good idea if the encounter designers make a proper go of it instead of the cookie cutter "same as before but with more numbers and a new add or debuff".

I just don't see the wisdom in having 4 difficulty modes. Having to do the same raid multiple times in the same week on the same character isn't fun.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:30 pm

ITT: people who are 100% sure that their one specific pet peeve is why WoW is dying. Despite having no data to support that claim. And completely missing the bigger picture. It's not a Maintankadin expansion thread without someone busy shitposting it up, though!

Unrelated:
Lieris wrote:I just don't see the wisdom in having 4 difficulty modes. Having to do the same raid multiple times in the same week on the same character isn't fun.

Having 4 difficulty modes makes perfect sense, actually. I play this game very differently than a friends & family guild does. If heroic mythic raiding was the only option, WoW would have suffered a much steeper decline than it already has. Ideally, there's an appropriate difficulty level for everyone, such that each raid team can pick an appropriate challenge to progress through.

That doesn't come without side effects though. The obvious problem is the one you allude to: players that want to min/max will always feel some incentive to run the instance multiple times for extra loot. There are a number of ways to try and fix that, of course - shared loot lockouts, careful ilvl selections, and so on. Blizzard is trying to do what they can to mitigate that problem without shared lockouts to keep those lower difficulty settings accessible.

I was worried about this with the current T16 setup, but in practice it never mattered because I simply didn't have time. So I ignored Flex and LFR entirely, and the world didn't end. We may have gotten kills a little quicker had we all been running Flex religiously, but given that we were already in full heroic gear, it probably wouldn't have made a big difference. More importantly though, we all agreed that the extra time investment wasn't worth the benefit. So we just didn't worry about it and killed bosses, and things were fine.

I think a lot of the worry about running multiple difficulty levels is mostly in peoples' heads. Top-100 guilds do that, for sure, but they're also putting in a lot of time each week to raid. I think a lot of world-1000 or lower guilds tend to get overzealous about these sorts of things because they're incredibly bad at actually min/max-ing. LFR/Flex are pretty terrible ways to min/max from a "time spent playing" perspective.

And lest someone try and claim I'm too "casual" and that this mindset doesn't work for a "serious" raider, I'm 10/14 heroic on 2 nights of raiding a week. We're consistently ranked in the top 3-5 in the West for 1-2 night guilds. Not many of the posters on these boards can claim similar levels of progression. So it's entirely possible to do very well in progression while ignoring Flex/LFR if you don't play like shit. Honestly, I've had a lot more fun with this game since I stopped caring about what rank my guild had on some website, and it hasn't prevented me from killing heroic bosses and taking their stuff.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Lieris » Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:00 pm

@theckhd:

I think that having a second flex difficulty is redundant that's all and having 4+ tiers of loot isn't very healthy for the game. Just make the first few bosses easy and use targeted nerfs on problem bosses/abilities and do something to lock out Mythic raiders from flex or make it not worth their while otherwise people will burn out.

Also running multiple difficulties is probably a lot more useful at the start of an expansion than at the end of one when you are decked out in heroic gear from the previous tier especially in MOP with its VP upgrades and heroic thunder/warforged items.
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