Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Ruldar » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:23 am

From word of Blizzard (well, tweet from GC, trying to find it), they have more people engaged in raiding now than they ever have before. So why in the world would they go back to an older system that did not work as well for getting people in to experience the content?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:27 am

Because of money.

Imagine you are Blizzard, what would you make the game for, the very strict minority who cares about uniqueness of heroic raiding, or the extremely large majority that doesnt give a fuck?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:43 am

Ruldar wrote:From word of Blizzard (well, tweet from GC, trying to find it), they have more people engaged in raiding now than they ever have before. So why in the world would they go back to an older system that did not work as well for getting people in to experience the content?


Well that's because they have replaced the old BC 70 normal dungeons ( yes normal NOT heroics ) with LFR, and the heroic dungeons of BC with Flexible raiding.

Remove flexible raiding and LFR numbers from that statistics and you will see just how many people care to raid right now. Just as an idea M'uru the hardest boss ever made for the game in BC ( by hardcore raiding standards ) was only killed by about 500 guilds before 3.0 patch and the massive nerfs.

How many guilds have killed Garrosh so far on HC 10 and 25 man? Less then 100, yes 100 guilds in the world and less then 200 have killed Paragons HC.

Worldie: I think the biggest mistake they ever did was introducing the idiocy of HC raiding in the first place with the launch of Wrath and then having super easy raids otherwise.

What they should have done is have another Karazhan like instance, Kara being the best entry level raid I've ever seen: Not requiring fully enchanted gear or real skill for the first few bosses but gradually becoming more and more and more difficult with every boss.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:48 am

You are talking very egoistically. Essentially saying Blizzard should have cared for those "only 500 guilds who killed M'uru" (including mine at that time), and not for the other 7900500 guilds that don't give a fuck about muru.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:49 am

Read again what I said. I mentioned M'uru in the context of pointing out that even fewer guilds care about the hardest raiding nowadays, even more so then in the past.

SWP in my honest opinion was a dumb instance. The gating system, leatherworking, Warlock 1 button spam, class stacking and so on.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:57 am

The thing I'm trying to say is that the 12 million players of Wotlk are totally different kind of people from the 8 millions of now.

People who play now mostly want something to do to pass time. Only a very small minority cares about being the best.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:04 am

Worldie wrote:The thing I'm trying to say is that the 12 million players of Wotlk are totally different kind of people from the 8 millions of now.

People who play now mostly want something to do to pass time. Only a very small minority cares about being the best.


I agree that very few people care about being the best, but that was the case as well in BC. The difference between now and then is Blizzard is trying to cater to extremes nowadays: The super hardcore and the super casual while leaving the regulars kinda in the wind.

EDIT: I believe every game should be about fun, and that is what you are entitled to as a paying subscriber of WOW, but is it necessary to have faceroll normal and heroic 5 man dungeons to be able to have fun? Is raid progression becoming irrelevant by having faceroll raids necessary to have fun because Blizzard HAS to make every single bit of content available to everyone, regardless of effort put in?

Was having fun in Vanilla and BC just about doing this super amazing raids or was it entering this wonderfully rich world where you knew so much awaited in terms of things that you could do? About exploring the world, enjoying the experience and progressing through the content bit by bit and not having every thrown at your feet in mere minutes?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:41 am

there still IS epic story arcs to be had, and by the looks of it more are coming

as far as teh catering to the extremes

by giving us ONE raid size for the world first race, ok i can see catering to the uber hardcore

but catering to the uber casuals? those are the ones that dont even have a max level toon
raiders (even LFRers) are still only something like 20% of the total population
there is other kinds of difficult content out there for those that want it

are you gold in all the challenge modes?
are you rank 9 in brawlers guild?
i can say a resounding fuck no to both of them...because i dont care about the challenge that much.
there is a reason i am a normal mode raider..i like seeing the content, at the difficulty i want to see it at.
my guild might try some heroics in a few months after we kill garrosh on normal, but who knows

if we went with what Io wants and got rid of flex/lfr, might as well say good bye to alts period.
with flex and lfr i am able to get an alt (which if you cant tell from my 15 90s, i like playing alts) geared up and ready to assist in a raid if i need to, without having to sit out my main

i am always boggled at the extent some people go to to justify blizz taking away something that lets normal people see content
less than 1% of the player base saw Naxx 1.0, much less cleared it
what was it, like 600 guilds cleared sunwell? 600x25 raiders per = a whole hell of a lot less than 12 million

what is wrong with people that dont give a shit about the uber challenge and just want to see the content?
they arent taking away the fact that you the heroic/mythic raider got to see the fights first, they arent getting equivalent gear, they dont get mounts or any thing else like that...
they get less powerful gear, a massive headache from doing LFR, and that is all...

i admit, i think the legendary cloak should have had some more normal content requirements, but it enables alts to get the cloak

i hate to say this, but the game has changed because the player base has changed. those that started in classic and BC and wanted the uber exclusivity of raiding are by and large gone, as was pointed out.
Blizzard has to follow the money. as much as i would love to have blizz focus just on raiding and making our raid fights as epic as possible, they have to give the majority something to do.

any other game where they said hey you 75-80% of our player base that doesnt do this activity, we need you to hold on while we make this AMAZING content..that you will probably never see because you suck or you dont have enough time or w/e...yeah that game wouldnt last a year

WoW is still going strong because they realized the player base has changed, and they are adapting to the changes
do we still have good raiding content...for the most part i say yes
no way i would want to go back to BC and have a ton of raid instances, but some of them not be finished
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:30 am

The player base changed really? Or did the game change with Wrath? Many hardcore raiders either gave up or stopped giving a shit about raiding ever since Wrath came out.

As for Naxx 1.0, let me make a point on that: Vanilla Raiding in Naxx required a lot of money spent on the attunment, or a massive rep grind to enter, then there was the usage of Flasks + Elixirs + Food + World Buffs from Onyxia/Hakkar etc. in order to kill all the bosses, all of this in an era when daily quests did not exist.

As for SWP, less then 400 I think, but welcome to a dumb instance with dumb requirements: Leatherworking for everyone, shaman and warlock class stacking ( actually fuck that, class stacking through the entire raid ) and a boss that 3 shots tanks in 1.5 seconds with the best gear possible and using ironshield potions and nightmare seeds ( Thanks Brutallus ).

But seriously you are going to define the entirety of vanilla and BC by just TWO raid instances? There is a lot more then that to them.

As for alts. Forgetting about patch 2.3 ZA badge gear that was better/on par with tier 5, AKA gear which you could use to clear BT/MH, the hardest raid instances in the game at the time? I would hope that people on MAINTANKADIN would not so easily forget the importance of THAT patch.

Then patch 2.4 with gear on par/better then tier 6 that could be gained from badges of justice, oh yes.

Blizzard is the only one responsible for the changed player base. If Wrath had been released in a vastly different state we would not have seen the rise of "Wrath babies", I do however believe that what once was can be again.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:34 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Multiple difficulty levels seems to be working just fine for Blizzard, although they're still tweaking and refining -- much to their credit and betterment of their game. You'll have to provide some support for your blanket assertion to be convincing.


Oh is it now? Did the game not stagnate in terms of subscribers during Wrath of the Lich King where they both introduced the idiotic notion of 10/25 man modes as well as heroic modes, because it did at 11.5 million.


Io.Draco wrote:Incalcando: World of Warcraft is in many ways an exception, to this day it maintains the highest sub numbers of any MMO with that business model.


Yes, working just fine. "Stagnating" at a playerbase larger than several European countries qualifies as "just fine" in my book, but I realize this is a subjective measure. They've also gone down a lot -- to 7.7M I think? -- which is still quite healthy. I'm wondering what percentage of the player base takes part in raiding at any level now, compared to the levels in each expansion.

Io.Draco wrote:The losses by Blizzard's mouth came from Asia, not the EU or US.

Io.Draco wrote:Oh absolutely I must have just imagined the thousands upon thousands of BT/MH/SWP raiders quitting after Wrath came along right? Absolutely!


Do you have a cite for people quitting after wrath all being raiders, or that the Asian players were raiders? I'm curious if you have actual numbers. Is there publicly accessible information somewhere showing a by-week breakdown of how many players killed how many bosses across the different difficulties? I'm sure Blizz has these numbers. I'd love to be able to dig around in them, personally.

In any case, I don't know that you can attribute every quitting raider (however many of them there were) to the 10/25 divide. The raiders I lost during this time quit because they'd been playing the game for five years, not because of the split. You seem very certain that the divide lead directly to people quitting -- do you have a cite?

Io.Draco wrote:Just as an idea M'uru the hardest boss ever made for the game in BC ( by hardcore raiding standards ) was only killed by about 500 guilds before 3.0 patch and the massive nerfs.

How many guilds have killed Garrosh so far on HC 10 and 25 man? Less then 100, yes 100 guilds in the world and less then 200 have killed Paragons HC.


How many weeks was Mu'ru up before the nerfs? Garrosh has been around for two months; is this a comparable time period?
Patch 2.4 was April 8 2008, The second gate in SWP opened on April 29, 2008 -- IIRC Mu'ru wasn't accessible until then -- first kill was on May 4th, 2008. The Mu'ru HP nerfs in 2.4.3 happened July 15th, 2008, 77 days later. Patch 3.0 was 10/14/08, 168 days. Where is the 500 guild cut off? By contrast 5.4 launched 9 weeks ago, I think, with heroic available for 56 days. If you're counting from patch 3.0 there's still quite a bit of time before you can draw any reasonable conclusions by comparing them -- assuming any legitimate conclusions *can* be drawn, which I'm not so certain of.

Io.Draco wrote:The difference between now and then is Blizzard is trying to cater to extremes nowadays: The super hardcore and the super casual while leaving the regulars kinda in the wind.


Normal and Heroic Flex are aimed directly at what Blizzard considers "the regulars." I don't think you're right here, unless you have a different idea of what the regulars are, or who those two middle tiers of raiding in 6.0 are targeted at.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:19 pm

Io.Draco wrote:I would hope that people on MAINTANKADIN would not so easily forget the importance of THAT patch.

did you stop to think that maybe some of us didnt play during the glory days of SP weapons and attunements?

im sorry i didnt pay my dues back when you had to tank uphill both ways and take out a mortgage on your nonexistent player housing to raid.
hell if i had, i would have quit a long time ago
yes i am admitting i am not that hardcore...that is why i am happy with my 10man normal mode progression guild

my point still stands though..there are more people raiding now and seeing content, while the mythic change coming will make it a more balanced and fair world first race
i will concede that the game changed as well..as it does every expansion
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Teranoid » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:24 pm

I love that every expansion on this site there's some random person who comes out of the woodwork and starts bitching about everything.

Never change MT. Never change.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:46 pm

I called out of work today because of a migraine.

I'm not sure if I can follow this argument, but let's see.

Blizzard sucks and is stupid because they are maintaining the multiple tier raiding model introduced in Cataclysm and maintained throughout Pandaria, which seems to be working well enough, so far, based on current subscription. People who are leaving the game are the ones who remember Sunwell Plateau as an amazing patch, except it really wasn't (this may or may not apply to those who actually raided SWP, I'm not clear here). Proof in point is everyone in Asia, not Europe or the US. It's certainly not because the players from then - who are still players now - haven't gotten older and had priorities change or anything; and definitely not that the new players who have joined since might not have the same priorities that the players from then possessed. Also, the multiple tier raiding model sucks, and everyone should just accept it without any actual solid proof, even though causation does not equal correlation, and the proof will be made in an Angry!Strident!Wall o' Text!

Also, Blizzard is stupid because (hold on, I have to go back and find this) "the joy of raiding is not, I repeat is not, just facing a challenge for a hardcore raider...It's experiencing the zone, listening to music, coming face to face with the bosses for the first time, killing them with your guild shouting in the background and getting their loot that looks cool...That experience is seriously damaged by difficulty modes," and then something about meaningless loot - though I wasn't clear on how loot damages the joy of "experiencing the zone, listening to music, coming face to face with the bosses for the first time." I'd like someone to clear that part up for me.

Other than that, what the hell did I miss? Also, I find the argument to be entirely stupid beyond all reason. I've not had my Flex experience damaged by LFR - except maybe in that I have higher expectations of the LFR crowd than I should, and am only running that shit now to finish up Secrets and move on to Runestones. But that's not part of this argument...I don't think.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:16 pm

Teranoid wrote:I love that every expansion on this site there's some random person who comes out of the woodwork and starts bitching about everything.

Never change MT. Never change.


Yep, the "my game experience is ruined because the game provides others with a different game experience...". :roll:
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:19 pm

Io.Draco wrote:The player base changed really? Or did the game change with Wrath? Many hardcore raiders either gave up or stopped giving a shit about raiding ever since Wrath came out.


If you paid attention here for the past 4 years, you would see that it has changed.
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