Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Ruldar » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:23 am

From word of Blizzard (well, tweet from GC, trying to find it), they have more people engaged in raiding now than they ever have before. So why in the world would they go back to an older system that did not work as well for getting people in to experience the content?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:27 am

Because of money.

Imagine you are Blizzard, what would you make the game for, the very strict minority who cares about uniqueness of heroic raiding, or the extremely large majority that doesnt give a fuck?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:43 am

Ruldar wrote:From word of Blizzard (well, tweet from GC, trying to find it), they have more people engaged in raiding now than they ever have before. So why in the world would they go back to an older system that did not work as well for getting people in to experience the content?


Well that's because they have replaced the old BC 70 normal dungeons ( yes normal NOT heroics ) with LFR, and the heroic dungeons of BC with Flexible raiding.

Remove flexible raiding and LFR numbers from that statistics and you will see just how many people care to raid right now. Just as an idea M'uru the hardest boss ever made for the game in BC ( by hardcore raiding standards ) was only killed by about 500 guilds before 3.0 patch and the massive nerfs.

How many guilds have killed Garrosh so far on HC 10 and 25 man? Less then 100, yes 100 guilds in the world and less then 200 have killed Paragons HC.

Worldie: I think the biggest mistake they ever did was introducing the idiocy of HC raiding in the first place with the launch of Wrath and then having super easy raids otherwise.

What they should have done is have another Karazhan like instance, Kara being the best entry level raid I've ever seen: Not requiring fully enchanted gear or real skill for the first few bosses but gradually becoming more and more and more difficult with every boss.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:48 am

You are talking very egoistically. Essentially saying Blizzard should have cared for those "only 500 guilds who killed M'uru" (including mine at that time), and not for the other 7900500 guilds that don't give a fuck about muru.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:49 am

Read again what I said. I mentioned M'uru in the context of pointing out that even fewer guilds care about the hardest raiding nowadays, even more so then in the past.

SWP in my honest opinion was a dumb instance. The gating system, leatherworking, Warlock 1 button spam, class stacking and so on.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:57 am

The thing I'm trying to say is that the 12 million players of Wotlk are totally different kind of people from the 8 millions of now.

People who play now mostly want something to do to pass time. Only a very small minority cares about being the best.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:04 am

Worldie wrote:The thing I'm trying to say is that the 12 million players of Wotlk are totally different kind of people from the 8 millions of now.

People who play now mostly want something to do to pass time. Only a very small minority cares about being the best.


I agree that very few people care about being the best, but that was the case as well in BC. The difference between now and then is Blizzard is trying to cater to extremes nowadays: The super hardcore and the super casual while leaving the regulars kinda in the wind.

EDIT: I believe every game should be about fun, and that is what you are entitled to as a paying subscriber of WOW, but is it necessary to have faceroll normal and heroic 5 man dungeons to be able to have fun? Is raid progression becoming irrelevant by having faceroll raids necessary to have fun because Blizzard HAS to make every single bit of content available to everyone, regardless of effort put in?

Was having fun in Vanilla and BC just about doing this super amazing raids or was it entering this wonderfully rich world where you knew so much awaited in terms of things that you could do? About exploring the world, enjoying the experience and progressing through the content bit by bit and not having every thrown at your feet in mere minutes?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:41 am

there still IS epic story arcs to be had, and by the looks of it more are coming

as far as teh catering to the extremes

by giving us ONE raid size for the world first race, ok i can see catering to the uber hardcore

but catering to the uber casuals? those are the ones that dont even have a max level toon
raiders (even LFRers) are still only something like 20% of the total population
there is other kinds of difficult content out there for those that want it

are you gold in all the challenge modes?
are you rank 9 in brawlers guild?
i can say a resounding fuck no to both of them...because i dont care about the challenge that much.
there is a reason i am a normal mode raider..i like seeing the content, at the difficulty i want to see it at.
my guild might try some heroics in a few months after we kill garrosh on normal, but who knows

if we went with what Io wants and got rid of flex/lfr, might as well say good bye to alts period.
with flex and lfr i am able to get an alt (which if you cant tell from my 15 90s, i like playing alts) geared up and ready to assist in a raid if i need to, without having to sit out my main

i am always boggled at the extent some people go to to justify blizz taking away something that lets normal people see content
less than 1% of the player base saw Naxx 1.0, much less cleared it
what was it, like 600 guilds cleared sunwell? 600x25 raiders per = a whole hell of a lot less than 12 million

what is wrong with people that dont give a shit about the uber challenge and just want to see the content?
they arent taking away the fact that you the heroic/mythic raider got to see the fights first, they arent getting equivalent gear, they dont get mounts or any thing else like that...
they get less powerful gear, a massive headache from doing LFR, and that is all...

i admit, i think the legendary cloak should have had some more normal content requirements, but it enables alts to get the cloak

i hate to say this, but the game has changed because the player base has changed. those that started in classic and BC and wanted the uber exclusivity of raiding are by and large gone, as was pointed out.
Blizzard has to follow the money. as much as i would love to have blizz focus just on raiding and making our raid fights as epic as possible, they have to give the majority something to do.

any other game where they said hey you 75-80% of our player base that doesnt do this activity, we need you to hold on while we make this AMAZING content..that you will probably never see because you suck or you dont have enough time or w/e...yeah that game wouldnt last a year

WoW is still going strong because they realized the player base has changed, and they are adapting to the changes
do we still have good raiding content...for the most part i say yes
no way i would want to go back to BC and have a ton of raid instances, but some of them not be finished
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:30 am

The player base changed really? Or did the game change with Wrath? Many hardcore raiders either gave up or stopped giving a shit about raiding ever since Wrath came out.

As for Naxx 1.0, let me make a point on that: Vanilla Raiding in Naxx required a lot of money spent on the attunment, or a massive rep grind to enter, then there was the usage of Flasks + Elixirs + Food + World Buffs from Onyxia/Hakkar etc. in order to kill all the bosses, all of this in an era when daily quests did not exist.

As for SWP, less then 400 I think, but welcome to a dumb instance with dumb requirements: Leatherworking for everyone, shaman and warlock class stacking ( actually fuck that, class stacking through the entire raid ) and a boss that 3 shots tanks in 1.5 seconds with the best gear possible and using ironshield potions and nightmare seeds ( Thanks Brutallus ).

But seriously you are going to define the entirety of vanilla and BC by just TWO raid instances? There is a lot more then that to them.

As for alts. Forgetting about patch 2.3 ZA badge gear that was better/on par with tier 5, AKA gear which you could use to clear BT/MH, the hardest raid instances in the game at the time? I would hope that people on MAINTANKADIN would not so easily forget the importance of THAT patch.

Then patch 2.4 with gear on par/better then tier 6 that could be gained from badges of justice, oh yes.

Blizzard is the only one responsible for the changed player base. If Wrath had been released in a vastly different state we would not have seen the rise of "Wrath babies", I do however believe that what once was can be again.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:34 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Multiple difficulty levels seems to be working just fine for Blizzard, although they're still tweaking and refining -- much to their credit and betterment of their game. You'll have to provide some support for your blanket assertion to be convincing.


Oh is it now? Did the game not stagnate in terms of subscribers during Wrath of the Lich King where they both introduced the idiotic notion of 10/25 man modes as well as heroic modes, because it did at 11.5 million.


Io.Draco wrote:Incalcando: World of Warcraft is in many ways an exception, to this day it maintains the highest sub numbers of any MMO with that business model.


Yes, working just fine. "Stagnating" at a playerbase larger than several European countries qualifies as "just fine" in my book, but I realize this is a subjective measure. They've also gone down a lot -- to 7.7M I think? -- which is still quite healthy. I'm wondering what percentage of the player base takes part in raiding at any level now, compared to the levels in each expansion.

Io.Draco wrote:The losses by Blizzard's mouth came from Asia, not the EU or US.

Io.Draco wrote:Oh absolutely I must have just imagined the thousands upon thousands of BT/MH/SWP raiders quitting after Wrath came along right? Absolutely!


Do you have a cite for people quitting after wrath all being raiders, or that the Asian players were raiders? I'm curious if you have actual numbers. Is there publicly accessible information somewhere showing a by-week breakdown of how many players killed how many bosses across the different difficulties? I'm sure Blizz has these numbers. I'd love to be able to dig around in them, personally.

In any case, I don't know that you can attribute every quitting raider (however many of them there were) to the 10/25 divide. The raiders I lost during this time quit because they'd been playing the game for five years, not because of the split. You seem very certain that the divide lead directly to people quitting -- do you have a cite?

Io.Draco wrote:Just as an idea M'uru the hardest boss ever made for the game in BC ( by hardcore raiding standards ) was only killed by about 500 guilds before 3.0 patch and the massive nerfs.

How many guilds have killed Garrosh so far on HC 10 and 25 man? Less then 100, yes 100 guilds in the world and less then 200 have killed Paragons HC.


How many weeks was Mu'ru up before the nerfs? Garrosh has been around for two months; is this a comparable time period?
Patch 2.4 was April 8 2008, The second gate in SWP opened on April 29, 2008 -- IIRC Mu'ru wasn't accessible until then -- first kill was on May 4th, 2008. The Mu'ru HP nerfs in 2.4.3 happened July 15th, 2008, 77 days later. Patch 3.0 was 10/14/08, 168 days. Where is the 500 guild cut off? By contrast 5.4 launched 9 weeks ago, I think, with heroic available for 56 days. If you're counting from patch 3.0 there's still quite a bit of time before you can draw any reasonable conclusions by comparing them -- assuming any legitimate conclusions *can* be drawn, which I'm not so certain of.

Io.Draco wrote:The difference between now and then is Blizzard is trying to cater to extremes nowadays: The super hardcore and the super casual while leaving the regulars kinda in the wind.


Normal and Heroic Flex are aimed directly at what Blizzard considers "the regulars." I don't think you're right here, unless you have a different idea of what the regulars are, or who those two middle tiers of raiding in 6.0 are targeted at.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:19 pm

Io.Draco wrote:I would hope that people on MAINTANKADIN would not so easily forget the importance of THAT patch.

did you stop to think that maybe some of us didnt play during the glory days of SP weapons and attunements?

im sorry i didnt pay my dues back when you had to tank uphill both ways and take out a mortgage on your nonexistent player housing to raid.
hell if i had, i would have quit a long time ago
yes i am admitting i am not that hardcore...that is why i am happy with my 10man normal mode progression guild

my point still stands though..there are more people raiding now and seeing content, while the mythic change coming will make it a more balanced and fair world first race
i will concede that the game changed as well..as it does every expansion
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Teranoid » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:24 pm

I love that every expansion on this site there's some random person who comes out of the woodwork and starts bitching about everything.

Never change MT. Never change.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:46 pm

I called out of work today because of a migraine.

I'm not sure if I can follow this argument, but let's see.

Blizzard sucks and is stupid because they are maintaining the multiple tier raiding model introduced in Cataclysm and maintained throughout Pandaria, which seems to be working well enough, so far, based on current subscription. People who are leaving the game are the ones who remember Sunwell Plateau as an amazing patch, except it really wasn't (this may or may not apply to those who actually raided SWP, I'm not clear here). Proof in point is everyone in Asia, not Europe or the US. It's certainly not because the players from then - who are still players now - haven't gotten older and had priorities change or anything; and definitely not that the new players who have joined since might not have the same priorities that the players from then possessed. Also, the multiple tier raiding model sucks, and everyone should just accept it without any actual solid proof, even though causation does not equal correlation, and the proof will be made in an Angry!Strident!Wall o' Text!

Also, Blizzard is stupid because (hold on, I have to go back and find this) "the joy of raiding is not, I repeat is not, just facing a challenge for a hardcore raider...It's experiencing the zone, listening to music, coming face to face with the bosses for the first time, killing them with your guild shouting in the background and getting their loot that looks cool...That experience is seriously damaged by difficulty modes," and then something about meaningless loot - though I wasn't clear on how loot damages the joy of "experiencing the zone, listening to music, coming face to face with the bosses for the first time." I'd like someone to clear that part up for me.

Other than that, what the hell did I miss? Also, I find the argument to be entirely stupid beyond all reason. I've not had my Flex experience damaged by LFR - except maybe in that I have higher expectations of the LFR crowd than I should, and am only running that shit now to finish up Secrets and move on to Runestones. But that's not part of this argument...I don't think.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:16 pm

Teranoid wrote:I love that every expansion on this site there's some random person who comes out of the woodwork and starts bitching about everything.

Never change MT. Never change.


Yep, the "my game experience is ruined because the game provides others with a different game experience...". :roll:
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:19 pm

Io.Draco wrote:The player base changed really? Or did the game change with Wrath? Many hardcore raiders either gave up or stopped giving a shit about raiding ever since Wrath came out.


If you paid attention here for the past 4 years, you would see that it has changed.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby lythac » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:49 pm

Pick the expansion you had most fun in/progressed in and slate the next one for ruining the game.

Io.Draco wrote:The player base changed really? Or did the game change with Wrath? Many hardcore raiders either gave up or stopped giving a shit about raiding ever since Wrath came out.


The game changed with TBC -

Small and tiny raid sizes, going from 40 man raids to Karazhans 10 man is just a joke. 25 man raids weren't much better, catering for casuals who couldn't manage 50+ raiding players to field 40 man teams. Please these 25 mans that we have today aren't proper raids, they are shadows of themselves, my screen looks empty of players.

Free epics through badges. LOL TBC hands out gear for no skill.

Free BiS epics thorugh crafting. Remember those cloth sets that people were using into BT/MH. In Vanilla you had to raid for gear, not simply craft it.

TBC killed the game, catering to casuals.

If you think the game changed with Wrath you are probably a TBC baby. Most of the hardcore raiders left at the end of Vanilla.



But really the game changes with every expansion, there are negatives with each regarding raiding but over time it is heading in the right direction. Too early to say for WoD.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Paxen » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:18 pm

lythac wrote:The game changed with TBC -


:lol: where's the like button
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:23 pm

Paxen wrote:
lythac wrote:The game changed with TBC -


:lol: where's the like button

for his whole post! :lol:
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Incalcando » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:51 pm

lythac wrote:Pick the expansion you had most fun in/progressed in and slate the next one for ruining the game.

Io.Draco wrote:The player base changed really? Or did the game change with Wrath? Many hardcore raiders either gave up or stopped giving a shit about raiding ever since Wrath came out.


The game changed with TBC -

Small and tiny raid sizes, going from 40 man raids to Karazhans 10 man is just a joke. 25 man raids weren't much better, catering for casuals who couldn't manage 50+ raiding players to field 40 man teams. Please these 25 mans that we have today aren't proper raids, they are shadows of themselves, my screen looks empty of players.

Free epics through badges. LOL TBC hands out gear for no skill.

Free BiS epics thorugh crafting. Remember those cloth sets that people were using into BT/MH. In Vanilla you had to raid for gear, not simply craft it.

TBC killed the game, catering to casuals.

If you think the game changed with Wrath you are probably a TBC baby. Most of the hardcore raiders left at the end of Vanilla.



But really the game changes with every expansion, there are negatives with each regarding raiding but over time it is heading in the right direction. Too early to say for WoD.


Thanks for that post.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Shamora » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:21 pm

Incalcando wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:
Repeat after me.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.


Oh absolutely I must have just imagined the thousands upon thousands of BT/MH/SWP raiders quitting after Wrath came along right? Absolutely!

If you have another real argument then please go ahead and offer it for why sub numbers stagnated throughout Wrath, I would be very eager to hear it.


Please name me a game that has continued to grow their playerbase throughout a 10-year span. [snip]


While I certainly agree with you I just wanted to point out that Eve Online is ten years old and still goin up in subs.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:27 am

lythac: Oh absolutely it changed, going from 20 man raids like ZG and AQ20 to 10 man raids like Karazhan and ZA. Then switching over from 40 man raids to 25 man raids. I also started playing in Vanilla thank you very much.

The difference between vanilla and BC was that raids were harder in BC then they ever were in Vanilla, and a lot more complex to boot, also there was less BS in terms of having to do bosses like Onyxia/Hakkar to get world buffs if you wanted to progress through Naxx/AQ 40 C'thun, oh and let's not forget the farming of materials for usage in flasks + elixirs + food.

As for the "Free Epics" from badges, perhaps you would care to remember the difficulty of heroic dungeons in BC that gave you only a couple of items at the badge vendor until ZA added a whole bunch of them?

Finally with regards to crafted items, you say that as if Vanilla did not have them! Right.

The difference between Vanilla to TBC is that TBC Naxx raiders had to content with bosses like Nightbane, Magtheridon, Al'Ar, Hydross, Vashj and Kael'Thas at launch while TBC raiders in the initial launch of Wrath had to content themselves with bosses like...Sartharion and to a degree Malygos.

Cataclysm screwed up by not having a Karazhan like raid. Wrath screwed up by having Naxx 2.0, which didn't work because the mechanics of Naxx had been tailored to the class mechanics and balance of Vanilla.

Pick the expansion you had most fun in/progressed in and slate the next one for ruining the game.


Ah but there is that tendency isn't it? From Wrath babies complaining about their glory days being lost to Vanilla players complaining about the reduction in scale of their raids, to TBC players complaining about the loss of a challenge in Wrath.

That said, given the numbers, I am of the belief that most Vanilla players and even hardcore raiders did appreciate the changes done in TBC. Oh sure some complained and quit but most stayed, which is what led to the success of TBC since more people became active subscribers.

Then there is Wrath where many BC SWP/BT/MH raiders left but were replaced by new players which in turn managed to prevent a decline in subs in Wrath. Then there is Cataclysm: A good start then a steady decline.

Then finally MoP, a brief resurgence of subs then decay once again.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:11 am

I'd disagree. The sub has been quite stable for several years now, always hanging around 8kk (bit less now).

Remember WoW still has a playerbase larger than every other western MMO combined.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Kelerei » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:20 am

I definitely don't believe that correlation causes causation here. A lot of people in this thread are claiming that the various changes to the raiding scene is the primary reason for the decline in subscriber numbers, but raiders are only a small proportion of the player population, and current heroic (future mythic) raiders are a small proportion of the aforesaid small proportion. Most of the player base isn't really bothered in raiding -- case in point, my two housemates play WoW, but one is an altoholic who only occassionally steps into LFR (and only if I'm available to tank it for him!), while the other focusses on out-of-the-way achievements (Loremaster, cooking meta achievement, that kind of thing) and doesn't even bother with LFR, let alone our weekly guild flexi run.

There's plenty of reasons why one may quit the game: being on the wrong side of a PvP server faction imbalance, dailies are too grindy, dailies aren't grindy enough, heroic dungeons giving "welfare" epics, not enough heroic dungeons any more and Y U MAEK ME RUN TEH SCENARIOS OH NOES FU IM QUITTING, server economies... the list can go on. And with the community as large and as diverse as it is, Blizzard can't please everyone. Understand that for every reason why someone might quit, that same reason could be why someone else might stay, and vice versa.

Also, saying that <insert-expansion-after-your-favourite-one> killed raiding is a bit nonsensical. It may have killed your perfect idea of raiding, and that may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some people, but others will carry on raiding, and new people will start raiding.

The thing is: both the player base and the game itself is evolving. In fact, one could take Darwin's theory of evolution, and apply it here: as the game changes, some players will evolve with the changes, some will be unable to and will die out, and some changes will create new players. (And of course, it goes the other way: Blizzard has to react to shifts in their player base, and the expectations of said player base.) So long as Blizzard doesn't do something analogous to the various world extinction events (e.g. they let Worldie near the game servers), this is quite normal.

Anyway, that's enough rambling about player subs from me. Now, on to the raiding difficulties...

I can't comment on the heroic to mythic change, as I'm not really an heroic raider: we aim to clear normal before the next raiding tier, and maybe dabble with some heroic bosses if there's time before the next tier came out (Dragon Soul being an exception: due to the length of that tier, we got 6/8 heroic bosses down before MoP, and we knocked off the last two while we were all still levelling to 90). At the moment, we have two 10-man groups both progressing at a respectable rate through SoO (both groups are 8/14, though my group has had some pulls on Malkorok while the others haven't yet). What will likely happen for us in Warlords of Draenor is that these groups will continue to operate as they are now, but will be aiming to clear the "new" heroic modes before the next tier. We probably won't be dabbling with mythic, because this would require us to merge the two groups, and as they operate autonomously from each other (differing schedules, loot systems, etc.), it's probably not worth the hassle for us to do so (I'm guild leader, so I'm already thinking about how we're going to approach this!). Though, having to think about this, I can imagine what the current 10-man heroic groups are dealing with.

I can understand Blizzard's reason for the changes: on heroic, some fights are more advantageous on 10-man than on 25-man, and vice versa. (Going back to Dragon Soul again, I could see a 25-man group having an easier time on heroic Hagara than a 10-man group, with the opposite being true for heroic Ultraxion.) It would make encounter design a lot easier, perhaps make mythic a bit more challenging, plus have the side-effect of ending the 10 vs 25 debate for once and all. That said, it will be a big adjustment for current heroic raiders, but they'll have plenty of time to decide what they're going to do and prepare for those changes. It's the whole evolution theory thing again: some will embrace the changes and adapt to them, others will dislike them and discontinue. There's nothing wrong with either side of the fence here.
Kelerei
 
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Winkle » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:24 am

There is no precedence for a game of WoWs size, longevity and playerbase. It would be naieve to think Blizzard ever imagined a playerbase of over 10m, or a player base of 7.6m some 10 years after release.

The simple fact is WoW has been incredibly successful and thus someone at Blizzard clearly does know what they're doing.

Your aregument Io.Draco that the changes to the raiding content in anyway reflect the size of the playerbase are completely unsubstantiated and cannot be proven in any reasonable way.
Winkle
 
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Paxen » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:40 am

The crowning argument for fixed 20-man size for me is that they'll bring back stuff like spellstealing on Maulgar and MC on Razuvius. I'm only sad that I'll only see what they come up with in gimped form in the flex modes.
Paxen
 
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