Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:48 pm

Worldie the Shiny-Breaker?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:53 pm

I havent broken any shiny.... yet!
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:33 pm

Worldie wrote:But but my shinies.

On a side note, there's going to be 2 legendaryes in the next exp, one similar to cloaks (aka, accessible to anyone), and one "harder to get", presumably that will require at least heroic clear if not mythic kills.


Link? I'm curious. I think the cloak was rather horrible, personally. I guess they liked it enough to introduce a second.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:55 am

Multiple difficulty levels seems to be working just fine for Blizzard, although they're still tweaking and refining -- much to their credit and betterment of their game. You'll have to provide some support for your blanket assertion to be convincing.


Oh is it now? Did the game not stagnate in terms of subscribers during Wrath of the Lich King where they both introduced the idiotic notion of 10/25 man modes as well as heroic modes, because it did at 11.5 million.

Did subscriber numbers not fall down by a massive margin in Cataclysm after introduction of LFR? They did.

So the system "working" for Blizzard is not true at all actually. Make all the arguments you wish about the game being old and all that but the truth is no other MMO offers the same experience that WoW does right, nor is any other MMO as good as WOW: GW2 had potential but failed due to lack of a solid PvE end game.

us that do normal/flex/LFR arent taking a dam thing away from you.


The system is taking away a lot from us, more so then some might realize. The joy of raiding is not, I repeat is not, just facing a challenge for a hardcore raider. It's entering the instance and getting that bridge open to Lady Vashj. It's killing the Illidari Council and seeing Akama open that door to Illidan, it's playing chess with Medivh and summoning Nightbane.

It's experiencing the zone, listening to music, coming face to face with the bosses for the first time, killing them with your guild shouting in the background and getting their loot that looks cool.

That experience is seriously damaged by difficulty modes: Loot is made meaningless anyway with transmog and if you are intending to raid heroic then you have already experienced the atmosphere, soundtrack, bosses and their dialogue many times over in normal already.

All that is left is that challenge and that nerd experience with the guild.

That is why a large number of hardcore raiders left during Wrath, people who had done significant chunks of Sunwell or some of it before 3.0. I saw entire guilds made up of hardcore raiders just be destroyed either prior to Ulduar's launch or shortly after the launch...because clearing an instance like Ulduar in a few days and then having to face the heroic bosses for the fun factor was not appealing to a large number of people.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:39 am

So what you're saying is the people you're arguing for all broke up and quit already six years ago? Why would Blizzard need to cater now for people who left because of changes in WotLK?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:46 am

It was an example of how Blizzard's glorious raiding changes made so many people quit during Wrath when they introduced this abominable system, a number of people came back for Cataclysm after buying into Blizzard's promises but then quit again. Myself being one of them.

I'll admit it: I enjoyed the shit out of Cataclysm until defeating every boss on normal difficulty and then I stopped because there was nothing left to do.

Without something to really shoot for as in BC there is no real reason for PvE players to stay and continue playing. You can just come in, play for about 1-2 months, level up, do normals then heroics then LFR and get to see every single boss in the game as well as every single raid instance.

There is no real incentive for people to become better, or to tackle heroic raiding unless they care about just the challenge and maybe if they have a guild with people they can enjoy playing. The latter being a strong reason for those in a guild they enjoy being to continue playing.

What made BC great was NOT the challenge in itself ( and just for the record any heroic raid right now can piss on all the raids of BC except for Sunwell in terms of challenge ), it was having six, yes SIX, individual separate raids at the launch of the expansion with 3 more added throughout. Was Tier 5 buggy as shit when the game came out? Yes. Was Hyjal unfinished? Yes, but at least you had that to shoot for and it took a long time for average players to reach BT and Hyjal let alone finish them.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Paxen » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:21 am

So basically you want a challenge, but you're not motivated by that challenge. You're motivated by a desire to see the scenery and experience the story. That's a pretty big disconnect, and Blizzard knew it was unsustainable. WoW peaked at the launch of Cata - your "return to the glory days" period of early Cataclysm was when the decline finally set in. It continued to grow all through the despicable Wrath expac that made raiding accessible.

You say there's no reason for people to become better unless they care about the challenge - I think that's great. This isn't work. If you want to face challenges and overcome them, the game has plenty. If you want to see the world and live the story, it's not limited to those who wish to dedicate hours and weeks and months to improving their skill at a video game.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:29 am

That's a pretty big disconnect, and Blizzard knew it was unsustainable.


Maybe, or maybe Blizzard thought it could be lazy and get away it with: Just look at Wrath launch raids. Also that "unsustainable" model worked well for BC where they went from 8 million to 11 million active subs in the course of the expansion.

It continued to grow all through the despicable Wrath expac that made raiding accessible.


Untrue actually. Several months before Wrath launched the game had 11 million active subscribers, as Wrath came closer to release the game reached 11.5 million and then that number STAGNATED during the course of the entire expansion, the only point where the game reached 12 million was just a few months before the launch of Cataclysm because of returning players like myself and the launch of Wrath in China.

Then numbers dropped in the first quarter of 2011, was it because Cataclysm was too hard or was it perhaps that hardcore players didn't like the game? It's worth noting that the majority of the subscriber losses were from Asia, by Blizzard's own statements, and the average Asian player is a lot more hardcore then the average EU player let alone US players.

If you want to see the world and live the story, it's not limited to those who wish to dedicate hours and weeks and months to improving their skill at a video game.


You somehow say that as if there was never any content during BC designed for people that didn't want to dedicate hours and weeks to improve their skills. I call bullshit on that.

Oh sure there was no scenarios, but there were plenty of epic quest lines throughout the Burning Crusade that did not require raiding. Garrosh quest line anyone? Cipher of Damnation? Just as some examples.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Nooska » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:59 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Multiple difficulty levels seems to be working just fine for Blizzard, although they're still tweaking and refining -- much to their credit and betterment of their game. You'll have to provide some support for your blanket assertion to be convincing.


Oh is it now? Did the game not stagnate in terms of subscribers during Wrath of the Lich King where they both introduced the idiotic notion of 10/25 man modes as well as heroic modes, because it did at 11.5 million.

Did subscriber numbers not fall down by a massive margin in Cataclysm after introduction of LFR? They did.


Repeat after me.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:27 am

Repeat after me.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.


Oh absolutely I must have just imagined the thousands upon thousands of BT/MH/SWP raiders quitting after Wrath came along right? Absolutely!

If you have another real argument then please go ahead and offer it for why sub numbers stagnated throughout Wrath, I would be very eager to hear it.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:36 am

I don't think Blizzard would consider maintaining their peak subscriber numbers across the course of an expansion "stagnation". It's hard to get much bigger than WoW was around then.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Incalcando » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:43 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Repeat after me.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.


Oh absolutely I must have just imagined the thousands upon thousands of BT/MH/SWP raiders quitting after Wrath came along right? Absolutely!

If you have another real argument then please go ahead and offer it for why sub numbers stagnated throughout Wrath, I would be very eager to hear it.


Please name me a game that has continued to grow their playerbase throughout a 10-year span. Every game gets old and boring to people and reaches its peak at some point or another. I keep playing because I enjoy the raiding content and as long as there is a thriving competitive scene with many good guilds competing in the world ranks, I will will continue to keep playing. Also I play because of my friends in this game. If I didn't have those, I would most likely have moved on to a more modern game. Why? Cause that's what I have done with every single other game I've ever played, NOTHING has keep me playing it, let alone paying for it monthly for almost 9 years now...

Yeah, wow exploded through BC cause it was still kind of a new game... And then it declined because a) Cata was kinda crap (not the raiding in it, the raiding was actually kinda great) in terms of things to do outside raids (the fact that we did not go to a new continent didn't help either) and b) people got bored of it after years upon years of playing.

You seriously seem to talk as if WoW is an exception of a game that nobody ever gets bored of after so many years and people only quit because of changes made in an activity the majority of the population doesn't even anticipate in. Trust me, if it was only raiders who were quitting, we wouldn't even be feeling the sub drops.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:59 am

Indeed, early Cataclysm catered pretty well to higher end raiders - the more likely losses came from people who didn't raid and didn't like both the more difficult Heroic dungeons and the lack of max level content for non-raiders. They've been working to fix that problem ever since, keeping the high end raiding around where it was and building things for the lower end (and middle) to do.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Ruldar » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:44 am

As an LFR/Flex casual, it is amazing how much of a damn I don't give that the experience of heroic raiders is apparently lessened by a version of their special content being available to me.

It's also hilarious how much LFR = Sub Loss is taken as a given without the slightest shred of proof.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:09 am

The losses by Blizzard's mouth came from Asia, not the EU or US. Also I will agree that raiding was not as good as some claim it was in Cataclysm, and yes I was there for the launch.

I loved Cataclysm until we got to heroic mode raiding and then I just lost interest, and I was not alone: Most guilds did not care about Heroic Raiding, it's not that they couldn't do it: Seriously the notion of so few guilds being able to handle Halfus after doing Al'Akir normal was ridiculous.

Incalcando: World of Warcraft is in many ways an exception, to this day it maintains the highest sub numbers of any MMO with that business model. In terms of single games I don't think there is any that you can compare to WoW however there are games franchises that can be compared WoW, examples would be Call of Duty and Elder Scrolls. What you can say about CoD especially is that while every new game in the series feels mostly the same and is mostly the same the success of the series has only grown with every game and the sales of these games, and yet it has barely changed.

Still it has grown and so has the Elder Scrolls series.

My argument as to why people are not staying is because there is a lack of high end of content that you can only access through continous play as BT/MH/SWP were in BC or Naxx/AQ/BWL in Vanilla. It's easy to look at it from the eyes of an old player but look back at what motivated you to get into raiding in the first place.

As an LFR/Flex casual, it is amazing how much of a damn I don't give that the experience of heroic raiders is apparently lessened by a version of their special content being available to me


What you ignore is why many people became raiders and then hardcore raiders in the first place in WoW, it was because of the experience of raiding was only available if you had the time/skill/knowledge to defeat bosses ( especially in TBC ).

Explain to me why exactly does the game need to destroy the possibly of having that same experience for new players or returning/old players by giving to unskilled/casual players? Why can we not have a system were such players have normal dungeons that then teach them to tackle heroics dungeons which then teach them to tackle raids while casuals get scenarios/daily quests hubs and epic quest chains available outside of raiding?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Ruldar » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:23 am

From word of Blizzard (well, tweet from GC, trying to find it), they have more people engaged in raiding now than they ever have before. So why in the world would they go back to an older system that did not work as well for getting people in to experience the content?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:27 am

Because of money.

Imagine you are Blizzard, what would you make the game for, the very strict minority who cares about uniqueness of heroic raiding, or the extremely large majority that doesnt give a fuck?
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:43 am

Ruldar wrote:From word of Blizzard (well, tweet from GC, trying to find it), they have more people engaged in raiding now than they ever have before. So why in the world would they go back to an older system that did not work as well for getting people in to experience the content?


Well that's because they have replaced the old BC 70 normal dungeons ( yes normal NOT heroics ) with LFR, and the heroic dungeons of BC with Flexible raiding.

Remove flexible raiding and LFR numbers from that statistics and you will see just how many people care to raid right now. Just as an idea M'uru the hardest boss ever made for the game in BC ( by hardcore raiding standards ) was only killed by about 500 guilds before 3.0 patch and the massive nerfs.

How many guilds have killed Garrosh so far on HC 10 and 25 man? Less then 100, yes 100 guilds in the world and less then 200 have killed Paragons HC.

Worldie: I think the biggest mistake they ever did was introducing the idiocy of HC raiding in the first place with the launch of Wrath and then having super easy raids otherwise.

What they should have done is have another Karazhan like instance, Kara being the best entry level raid I've ever seen: Not requiring fully enchanted gear or real skill for the first few bosses but gradually becoming more and more and more difficult with every boss.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:48 am

You are talking very egoistically. Essentially saying Blizzard should have cared for those "only 500 guilds who killed M'uru" (including mine at that time), and not for the other 7900500 guilds that don't give a fuck about muru.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:49 am

Read again what I said. I mentioned M'uru in the context of pointing out that even fewer guilds care about the hardest raiding nowadays, even more so then in the past.

SWP in my honest opinion was a dumb instance. The gating system, leatherworking, Warlock 1 button spam, class stacking and so on.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:57 am

The thing I'm trying to say is that the 12 million players of Wotlk are totally different kind of people from the 8 millions of now.

People who play now mostly want something to do to pass time. Only a very small minority cares about being the best.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:04 am

Worldie wrote:The thing I'm trying to say is that the 12 million players of Wotlk are totally different kind of people from the 8 millions of now.

People who play now mostly want something to do to pass time. Only a very small minority cares about being the best.


I agree that very few people care about being the best, but that was the case as well in BC. The difference between now and then is Blizzard is trying to cater to extremes nowadays: The super hardcore and the super casual while leaving the regulars kinda in the wind.

EDIT: I believe every game should be about fun, and that is what you are entitled to as a paying subscriber of WOW, but is it necessary to have faceroll normal and heroic 5 man dungeons to be able to have fun? Is raid progression becoming irrelevant by having faceroll raids necessary to have fun because Blizzard HAS to make every single bit of content available to everyone, regardless of effort put in?

Was having fun in Vanilla and BC just about doing this super amazing raids or was it entering this wonderfully rich world where you knew so much awaited in terms of things that you could do? About exploring the world, enjoying the experience and progressing through the content bit by bit and not having every thrown at your feet in mere minutes?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:41 am

there still IS epic story arcs to be had, and by the looks of it more are coming

as far as teh catering to the extremes

by giving us ONE raid size for the world first race, ok i can see catering to the uber hardcore

but catering to the uber casuals? those are the ones that dont even have a max level toon
raiders (even LFRers) are still only something like 20% of the total population
there is other kinds of difficult content out there for those that want it

are you gold in all the challenge modes?
are you rank 9 in brawlers guild?
i can say a resounding fuck no to both of them...because i dont care about the challenge that much.
there is a reason i am a normal mode raider..i like seeing the content, at the difficulty i want to see it at.
my guild might try some heroics in a few months after we kill garrosh on normal, but who knows

if we went with what Io wants and got rid of flex/lfr, might as well say good bye to alts period.
with flex and lfr i am able to get an alt (which if you cant tell from my 15 90s, i like playing alts) geared up and ready to assist in a raid if i need to, without having to sit out my main

i am always boggled at the extent some people go to to justify blizz taking away something that lets normal people see content
less than 1% of the player base saw Naxx 1.0, much less cleared it
what was it, like 600 guilds cleared sunwell? 600x25 raiders per = a whole hell of a lot less than 12 million

what is wrong with people that dont give a shit about the uber challenge and just want to see the content?
they arent taking away the fact that you the heroic/mythic raider got to see the fights first, they arent getting equivalent gear, they dont get mounts or any thing else like that...
they get less powerful gear, a massive headache from doing LFR, and that is all...

i admit, i think the legendary cloak should have had some more normal content requirements, but it enables alts to get the cloak

i hate to say this, but the game has changed because the player base has changed. those that started in classic and BC and wanted the uber exclusivity of raiding are by and large gone, as was pointed out.
Blizzard has to follow the money. as much as i would love to have blizz focus just on raiding and making our raid fights as epic as possible, they have to give the majority something to do.

any other game where they said hey you 75-80% of our player base that doesnt do this activity, we need you to hold on while we make this AMAZING content..that you will probably never see because you suck or you dont have enough time or w/e...yeah that game wouldnt last a year

WoW is still going strong because they realized the player base has changed, and they are adapting to the changes
do we still have good raiding content...for the most part i say yes
no way i would want to go back to BC and have a ton of raid instances, but some of them not be finished
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:30 am

The player base changed really? Or did the game change with Wrath? Many hardcore raiders either gave up or stopped giving a shit about raiding ever since Wrath came out.

As for Naxx 1.0, let me make a point on that: Vanilla Raiding in Naxx required a lot of money spent on the attunment, or a massive rep grind to enter, then there was the usage of Flasks + Elixirs + Food + World Buffs from Onyxia/Hakkar etc. in order to kill all the bosses, all of this in an era when daily quests did not exist.

As for SWP, less then 400 I think, but welcome to a dumb instance with dumb requirements: Leatherworking for everyone, shaman and warlock class stacking ( actually fuck that, class stacking through the entire raid ) and a boss that 3 shots tanks in 1.5 seconds with the best gear possible and using ironshield potions and nightmare seeds ( Thanks Brutallus ).

But seriously you are going to define the entirety of vanilla and BC by just TWO raid instances? There is a lot more then that to them.

As for alts. Forgetting about patch 2.3 ZA badge gear that was better/on par with tier 5, AKA gear which you could use to clear BT/MH, the hardest raid instances in the game at the time? I would hope that people on MAINTANKADIN would not so easily forget the importance of THAT patch.

Then patch 2.4 with gear on par/better then tier 6 that could be gained from badges of justice, oh yes.

Blizzard is the only one responsible for the changed player base. If Wrath had been released in a vastly different state we would not have seen the rise of "Wrath babies", I do however believe that what once was can be again.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:34 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Multiple difficulty levels seems to be working just fine for Blizzard, although they're still tweaking and refining -- much to their credit and betterment of their game. You'll have to provide some support for your blanket assertion to be convincing.


Oh is it now? Did the game not stagnate in terms of subscribers during Wrath of the Lich King where they both introduced the idiotic notion of 10/25 man modes as well as heroic modes, because it did at 11.5 million.


Io.Draco wrote:Incalcando: World of Warcraft is in many ways an exception, to this day it maintains the highest sub numbers of any MMO with that business model.


Yes, working just fine. "Stagnating" at a playerbase larger than several European countries qualifies as "just fine" in my book, but I realize this is a subjective measure. They've also gone down a lot -- to 7.7M I think? -- which is still quite healthy. I'm wondering what percentage of the player base takes part in raiding at any level now, compared to the levels in each expansion.

Io.Draco wrote:The losses by Blizzard's mouth came from Asia, not the EU or US.

Io.Draco wrote:Oh absolutely I must have just imagined the thousands upon thousands of BT/MH/SWP raiders quitting after Wrath came along right? Absolutely!


Do you have a cite for people quitting after wrath all being raiders, or that the Asian players were raiders? I'm curious if you have actual numbers. Is there publicly accessible information somewhere showing a by-week breakdown of how many players killed how many bosses across the different difficulties? I'm sure Blizz has these numbers. I'd love to be able to dig around in them, personally.

In any case, I don't know that you can attribute every quitting raider (however many of them there were) to the 10/25 divide. The raiders I lost during this time quit because they'd been playing the game for five years, not because of the split. You seem very certain that the divide lead directly to people quitting -- do you have a cite?

Io.Draco wrote:Just as an idea M'uru the hardest boss ever made for the game in BC ( by hardcore raiding standards ) was only killed by about 500 guilds before 3.0 patch and the massive nerfs.

How many guilds have killed Garrosh so far on HC 10 and 25 man? Less then 100, yes 100 guilds in the world and less then 200 have killed Paragons HC.


How many weeks was Mu'ru up before the nerfs? Garrosh has been around for two months; is this a comparable time period?
Patch 2.4 was April 8 2008, The second gate in SWP opened on April 29, 2008 -- IIRC Mu'ru wasn't accessible until then -- first kill was on May 4th, 2008. The Mu'ru HP nerfs in 2.4.3 happened July 15th, 2008, 77 days later. Patch 3.0 was 10/14/08, 168 days. Where is the 500 guild cut off? By contrast 5.4 launched 9 weeks ago, I think, with heroic available for 56 days. If you're counting from patch 3.0 there's still quite a bit of time before you can draw any reasonable conclusions by comparing them -- assuming any legitimate conclusions *can* be drawn, which I'm not so certain of.

Io.Draco wrote:The difference between now and then is Blizzard is trying to cater to extremes nowadays: The super hardcore and the super casual while leaving the regulars kinda in the wind.


Normal and Heroic Flex are aimed directly at what Blizzard considers "the regulars." I don't think you're right here, unless you have a different idea of what the regulars are, or who those two middle tiers of raiding in 6.0 are targeted at.
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