Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Belloc » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:34 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Imagine though you are a new or returning player without a guild, you have to do LFR to get gear and you even have to do Flex to a degree before being able to even step foot in normal raiding with a guild.

Okay, now imagine that you are a new or returning player WITH a guild. You still have to either run LFR OR collect valor for gear purchases, run Timeless Isle for catchup epics and then run Flex, right?

If you're a new player, you'll be able to gear up just as fast as anyone else at the start of the expansion. If you're a returning player, you have to take advantage of the catch-up mechanisms, guild or not. Hopefully they put plenty of those in the game with WoD so that we aren't "forced" to do LFR... but, let's be honest here, if they don't, you only have yourself to blame. I've only ever "quit" late in a tier and I've never had to take advantage of catch up mechanics.

If you're going to quit, of course you're going to have to temporarily work harder to catch up... and why should it be any different? Does it make sense that you should be able to skip all of the introductory content and just jump right into the latest content?

You know what I would do, right now, if I were a returning player? I'd run Timeless Isle until I was full on 496 gear (with a 476 weapon via timeless coins) and then I'd start joining ToT groups on Openraid or OQueue while farming valor for 522 epics. Yes, I'd probably also do the current LFR, but it wouldn't be for long. A short while later, I'd get started on Flex modes. Finally, I'd be ready for Normals/heroics. And I wouldn't complain about it because it's my own fault that I fell behind. I also wouldn't be complaining because it'd only take about a month, tops, for me to be caught up and ready to go. I say this because, surprise surprise, I had to catch my warlock up after spending most of the first tier with him sitting at level 85.

I'm sorry if this came off as rude, but I see people complaining about being forced to do content or how hard it is to catch up as a returning player... and it's really not. I've had to play the catch-up game (on my alt) in every expansion so far and it has never, not once, been even remotely challenging. Either I've got extremely good luck or I'm putting actual work into it while other people are complaining about how hard it is. I'll let you guess which one I think it is.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:40 pm

If you're going to quit, of course you're going to have to temporarily work harder to catch up..


Of course, but look back at BC or even Wrath. You did heroics, got badges/points, got gear with badges/points.

What you did not do was run stripped down versions of raids you want to do later on...unless we talk of Wrath with it's heroic versions of raids and how 10 man normal was puggable.

Timeless works sure, and I DO NOT MIND THAT, what I DO mind is LFR, and why would you NOT do LFR while also doing timeless isle?

My point was not that it's "difficult" it's piss easy compared to what was previously, but why would you raid normally after doing LFR? What's the incentive?

The only real reason, besides the challenge, is the social aspect that you get from playing in a guild.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Belloc » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:47 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
If you're going to quit, of course you're going to have to temporarily work harder to catch up..


Of course, but look back at BC or even Wrath. You did heroics, got badges/points, got gear with badges/points.

What you did not do was run stripped down versions of raids you want to do later on...unless we talk of Wrath with it's heroic versions of raids.

Timeless works sure, and I DO NOT MIND THAT, what I DO mind is LFR.

Then don't run it. Going off what Blizzard has said, it sounds to me like Valor gear will be making a comeback (my reasoning being that they mentioned the possibility of removing justice, leaving valor, while also mentioning that they're not sure if item upgrades will return. In other words, the only other thing to spend valor on is gear), so there's that. There are also crafted items, previous raid tiers (if you're a returning player, you're probably returning in a later tier, right? Otherwise 5-mans would be enough to gear you up), and reputation gear. Oh, and they also suggested, in an off-hand way, that we'd be getting multiple tiers of 5-mans (in other words, expect new 5-mans to come with certain patches), which is another catch-up mechanism.

So, when WoD comes, I expect this to be a viable catch-up strategy: Spend the first week running 5 mans until you have enough 5-man gear and valor to put yourself up to the level of the first tier of content. Spend the end of that week and then later week(s) running normal (flex) modes of the first tier of content. Do this for a couple of weeks and then start running heroic (normal) modes of the first tier while running normal (flex) modes of the next/current tier while still collecting valor gear. Bam, you're caught up and you never stepped foot in LFR.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:49 pm

How about just removing LFR then? What's the purpose of it if you don't have to run it to get into raiding.

Also while your argument of "don't do it then" might fly with old returning players it doesn't work with new players. Why would they purposely avoid content in the game you are paying money for on monthly basis?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:12 pm

I think you missed the point you just stated.

You don't have to do LFR to get into raiding. It helps, but it's not a requirement or an attunement.

My roommate did a Flex this weekend with my normal group, he only had one piece of LFR gear from the first wing. We cleared out wings 3 and 4, and though he had to step out for Garrosh due to low dps (lovely lag and unfamiliarity), he considers it a success. He picked up three weapons from six bosses.

He has never seen wing 2 of Siege. In any difficulty.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:48 pm

Io.Draco wrote:How about just removing LFR then? What's the purpose of it if you don't have to run it to get into raiding.


Different target audience.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:11 pm

Yeah as if players outside that target audience will never use that system.


Right....difficulty levels do NOT WORK FOR MMOs. You have scenarios, use them for this "target audience".
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:48 pm

LFR is not a raid. LFR is solo play that requires no effort. LFR is a glorified heroic dungeon. Has absolutely nothing to do with organized raiding.
From what you say, if they called it "glorified scenario", you'd have no problem in doing it.

You should know that. Many people actually atm just join LFR and go afk or autowalk. For how desplicable it can seemb, you can do it, and no, you won't get kicked.

Also, as people said, LFR is not mandatory. Timeless gear is 7 ilvl higher than LFR drops, and is farmable (faster if lucky). There's also several 522/553 craftables available.

The only thing you may want to really do LFR for, is a Weapon. You can fill every other slot with 535+ gear without setting a single foot in LFR.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:19 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Yeah as if players outside that target audience will never use that system.


Right....difficulty levels do NOT WORK FOR MMOs. You have scenarios, use them for this "target audience".


OK, all heroic.. everyone else gets scenarios. happy? :roll:

You are looking at the raid levels from your own very very narrow viewpoint, of a hardcore raider that will spend 30 hours a week if Blizz allows it. Most others don't do that.

LFR is tourist mode, as stated at Blizzcon. It is meant for those that will never do other raiding. It's also meant as a catch-up for those who need some more skill, or some more gear.

It's not meant for the hardcore that will grind for 20 hours for a 2 point ilvl upgrade.

We already had this argument a month ago, let's not go there again... please....
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Teranoid » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:06 pm

Wow this thread got stupid in a hurry.

But no seriously if you're going to start the LFR bullshit again go read the other 70 threads instead of trying to stir up shit again.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:33 pm

Teranoid wrote:Wow this thread got stupid in a hurry.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:43 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Yeah as if players outside that target audience will never use that system.

Right....difficulty levels do NOT WORK FOR MMOs. You have scenarios, use them for this "target audience".


People outside the target audience are free to also use the system -- what's the problem there? You remove something that caters to an audience -- then what does that audience get?

Scenarios address a different target audience and have their own niche. What's the problem there?

Multiple difficulty levels seems to be working just fine for Blizzard, although they're still tweaking and refining -- much to their credit and betterment of their game. You'll have to provide some support for your blanket assertion to be convincing.

And yeah this conversation comes up again about every other quarter, or whenever Blizz introduces a new tweak to the raiding system. I don't think Io was around for the last one; it's been a while since he's been active.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:56 pm

its the same dam argument we have every couple of months...i remember hearing the same ones in T9 with the advent of heroic raids, Cata when 10 and 25 didnt drop different loot, etc

face it, as raiders we are all in the 10% of the wow pop that does endgame
heroic raiders are something like 10% of that population
but yet there is always a heroic raider (it almost always is a heroic raider, but not always, sometimes its a casual/newb) that argues either the sanctity of raiding is too accessible and if they want access they need to get better, or that its too hard to get into raiding

before i launch into more of a rant, im stopping myself here...just give up the idea that raiding is only for the heroic raiders...the heroic raiding is for you guys, us that do normal/flex/LFR arent taking a dam thing away from you.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:22 pm

But but my shinies.

On a side note, there's going to be 2 legendaryes in the next exp, one similar to cloaks (aka, accessible to anyone), and one "harder to get", presumably that will require at least heroic clear if not mythic kills.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:35 pm

Worldie wrote:But but my shinies.

are still your shinies despite the fact that a filthy casual has a similar, but less powerful, version

the only viable argument is the legendary cloaks and being able to get them purely from LFR...which is great for those of us with alts
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:48 pm

Worldie the Shiny-Breaker?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:53 pm

I havent broken any shiny.... yet!
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:33 pm

Worldie wrote:But but my shinies.

On a side note, there's going to be 2 legendaryes in the next exp, one similar to cloaks (aka, accessible to anyone), and one "harder to get", presumably that will require at least heroic clear if not mythic kills.


Link? I'm curious. I think the cloak was rather horrible, personally. I guess they liked it enough to introduce a second.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:55 am

Multiple difficulty levels seems to be working just fine for Blizzard, although they're still tweaking and refining -- much to their credit and betterment of their game. You'll have to provide some support for your blanket assertion to be convincing.


Oh is it now? Did the game not stagnate in terms of subscribers during Wrath of the Lich King where they both introduced the idiotic notion of 10/25 man modes as well as heroic modes, because it did at 11.5 million.

Did subscriber numbers not fall down by a massive margin in Cataclysm after introduction of LFR? They did.

So the system "working" for Blizzard is not true at all actually. Make all the arguments you wish about the game being old and all that but the truth is no other MMO offers the same experience that WoW does right, nor is any other MMO as good as WOW: GW2 had potential but failed due to lack of a solid PvE end game.

us that do normal/flex/LFR arent taking a dam thing away from you.


The system is taking away a lot from us, more so then some might realize. The joy of raiding is not, I repeat is not, just facing a challenge for a hardcore raider. It's entering the instance and getting that bridge open to Lady Vashj. It's killing the Illidari Council and seeing Akama open that door to Illidan, it's playing chess with Medivh and summoning Nightbane.

It's experiencing the zone, listening to music, coming face to face with the bosses for the first time, killing them with your guild shouting in the background and getting their loot that looks cool.

That experience is seriously damaged by difficulty modes: Loot is made meaningless anyway with transmog and if you are intending to raid heroic then you have already experienced the atmosphere, soundtrack, bosses and their dialogue many times over in normal already.

All that is left is that challenge and that nerd experience with the guild.

That is why a large number of hardcore raiders left during Wrath, people who had done significant chunks of Sunwell or some of it before 3.0. I saw entire guilds made up of hardcore raiders just be destroyed either prior to Ulduar's launch or shortly after the launch...because clearing an instance like Ulduar in a few days and then having to face the heroic bosses for the fun factor was not appealing to a large number of people.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:39 am

So what you're saying is the people you're arguing for all broke up and quit already six years ago? Why would Blizzard need to cater now for people who left because of changes in WotLK?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:46 am

It was an example of how Blizzard's glorious raiding changes made so many people quit during Wrath when they introduced this abominable system, a number of people came back for Cataclysm after buying into Blizzard's promises but then quit again. Myself being one of them.

I'll admit it: I enjoyed the shit out of Cataclysm until defeating every boss on normal difficulty and then I stopped because there was nothing left to do.

Without something to really shoot for as in BC there is no real reason for PvE players to stay and continue playing. You can just come in, play for about 1-2 months, level up, do normals then heroics then LFR and get to see every single boss in the game as well as every single raid instance.

There is no real incentive for people to become better, or to tackle heroic raiding unless they care about just the challenge and maybe if they have a guild with people they can enjoy playing. The latter being a strong reason for those in a guild they enjoy being to continue playing.

What made BC great was NOT the challenge in itself ( and just for the record any heroic raid right now can piss on all the raids of BC except for Sunwell in terms of challenge ), it was having six, yes SIX, individual separate raids at the launch of the expansion with 3 more added throughout. Was Tier 5 buggy as shit when the game came out? Yes. Was Hyjal unfinished? Yes, but at least you had that to shoot for and it took a long time for average players to reach BT and Hyjal let alone finish them.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Paxen » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:21 am

So basically you want a challenge, but you're not motivated by that challenge. You're motivated by a desire to see the scenery and experience the story. That's a pretty big disconnect, and Blizzard knew it was unsustainable. WoW peaked at the launch of Cata - your "return to the glory days" period of early Cataclysm was when the decline finally set in. It continued to grow all through the despicable Wrath expac that made raiding accessible.

You say there's no reason for people to become better unless they care about the challenge - I think that's great. This isn't work. If you want to face challenges and overcome them, the game has plenty. If you want to see the world and live the story, it's not limited to those who wish to dedicate hours and weeks and months to improving their skill at a video game.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:29 am

That's a pretty big disconnect, and Blizzard knew it was unsustainable.


Maybe, or maybe Blizzard thought it could be lazy and get away it with: Just look at Wrath launch raids. Also that "unsustainable" model worked well for BC where they went from 8 million to 11 million active subs in the course of the expansion.

It continued to grow all through the despicable Wrath expac that made raiding accessible.


Untrue actually. Several months before Wrath launched the game had 11 million active subscribers, as Wrath came closer to release the game reached 11.5 million and then that number STAGNATED during the course of the entire expansion, the only point where the game reached 12 million was just a few months before the launch of Cataclysm because of returning players like myself and the launch of Wrath in China.

Then numbers dropped in the first quarter of 2011, was it because Cataclysm was too hard or was it perhaps that hardcore players didn't like the game? It's worth noting that the majority of the subscriber losses were from Asia, by Blizzard's own statements, and the average Asian player is a lot more hardcore then the average EU player let alone US players.

If you want to see the world and live the story, it's not limited to those who wish to dedicate hours and weeks and months to improving their skill at a video game.


You somehow say that as if there was never any content during BC designed for people that didn't want to dedicate hours and weeks to improve their skills. I call bullshit on that.

Oh sure there was no scenarios, but there were plenty of epic quest lines throughout the Burning Crusade that did not require raiding. Garrosh quest line anyone? Cipher of Damnation? Just as some examples.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Nooska » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:59 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Multiple difficulty levels seems to be working just fine for Blizzard, although they're still tweaking and refining -- much to their credit and betterment of their game. You'll have to provide some support for your blanket assertion to be convincing.


Oh is it now? Did the game not stagnate in terms of subscribers during Wrath of the Lich King where they both introduced the idiotic notion of 10/25 man modes as well as heroic modes, because it did at 11.5 million.

Did subscriber numbers not fall down by a massive margin in Cataclysm after introduction of LFR? They did.


Repeat after me.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:27 am

Repeat after me.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.


Oh absolutely I must have just imagined the thousands upon thousands of BT/MH/SWP raiders quitting after Wrath came along right? Absolutely!

If you have another real argument then please go ahead and offer it for why sub numbers stagnated throughout Wrath, I would be very eager to hear it.
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