Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:03 am

You've forgotten to count the 9 individual world boss encounters in MoP (4 Celestials, Ordos, Oondasta, Nalak, Galleon, Sha of Anger). BC had 50 and 2 world bosses. So they're tied, actually.

You can't really compare the expansions on boss numbers like that, though.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:14 am

KysenMurrin wrote:You've forgotten to count the 9 individual world boss encounters in MoP. You can't really compare the expansions on boss numbers like that, though.


So that would mean overall 52 bosses for MoP, and 52 for BC if I add in Kazzak and Doomwalker.

As for comparing the two, sure there's other aspects as well to take into consideration because overall it is about content. BC had 3 daily questing zones ( Skyguard, Netherwing and Quel'Danas ) added throughout the expansion and overall nine raid zones, yes NINE with different art, design and trash mobs.

Now Blizzard is touting that they have the largest dev team in their history working on Draenor, well surely they can do better then an expansion released six years ago where they had less developers. Of course there's scenarios to take into consideration as well but still.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:31 am

And yet most of the BC content was poorly designed, and the majority of players were left without much to do beyond grinding dailies or Heroics.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:17 am

where do they say they have the largest WOW DEDICATED dev team ever?

they are also putting out content for 5 games currently, and there is also titan

as far as trying to bring in SC2 for a wow discussion...REALLY? talk about grasping at straws
the fact that blizzard put out both games just shows they typically put out good games.
a RTS =/= a MMO

there is an immense difference between raiding with a team of other people and being one person controlling a base and an army...
the closest you can probably come in wow to SC2 without mods is being the leader of a RBG group in like AV...

you touted the 4 different daily zones..granted we didnt get 3 daily zones, but we did get 5 separate areas added in MoP..
5.1 - invasion beaches
5.2 - isle of thunder AND isle of giants
5.3 - northern barrens revamp
5.4 - timeless isle

if you look at different art styles, i would say that:
T14
- 3 raids, 3 different styles...that one should be easy
T15
- first wing - mogu architecture, but troll based mechanics and trash,
- 2nd wing - more natural architecture and beast/element based bosses and trash
- 3rd wing - getting back to mogu architecture again, so maybe tie this one in with wing 4
T16
- wing 1 -new titan architecture for 3 bosses, and a mini zone revamp
- wing 2 - mostly revamped Durotar and Ogr
- wings 3 and 4 - all brand new areas

of the 3 teirs we have in MoP, only SoO is not brand new, but even it is only revamped for one wing, and one boss.
BC had 2 world bosses?
MoP has had 9 encounters

9 raid zones? and how many bosses in each?
Mag's Lair - 1 boss
Grull - 2 bosses
BT - 9 bosses
Hyjal - 5 bosses
SSC - 6 bosses
Kara - the "entry level raid" had 12 bosses
sunwell - 6 encounters
and TK - a mere 4...

with numbers like that, it doesnt surprise me at all that MoP and BC have the same number of encounters
as a comparison - classic (based on wowhead, i know its missing ZG) has 45 encouters with 3 optional across 6 zones (counting naxx and ony)
wrath - 41 in 9 raids
and cata - just 31 across 6 raids with one heroic only.

MoP is the return of large tiers, lots of things to do outside of raiding, and world bosses
-pet battles
-reps to farm
-TONS of rares to kill
-hunter pet tracking challenges
-3 new BGs and 2 new arenas
-proving grounds
-brawlers guild
-rare boa items/treasures

yes, Rift is old school wow...and its player numbers show it
there is probably a reason that people wanted it to be F2P..i know when i played it during the beta and a little after, i thought if i wanted this i would go play wow..why pay another sub for the same game?

now that wow has changed, and i have changed with it, i dont want to go back to the old school ... but that is just me
if i want the challenge, i have it in my personal raiding and what i strive for.
i am happy being a normal mode raider atm, and am glad i get to see the content that blizz puts out.
im not sure what the big deal about me and my raid team seeing the content is..
you heroic elite raiders get better gear, and get heroic only phases/bosses...
plus you get to see the content MONTHS before i do

ffs i have seen garrosh die once...in LFR...
hopefully this week we will be there in flex, but we are probably 2-3 week from even pulling him on normal, and months away from even THINKING about heroic. if i want to see the 4th phase, i either go to youtube, or abandon my raid team that is my friends and i have fun raiding with and try to get in a hardcore heroic guild.
i know i dont have the skill for the heroic hardcore guild, and even if i did i would much rather raid where i can have fun and not be stressed out.

those that do have the drive and skill for that type of raiding, GO FOR IT! i will be here to cheer you on like i do treckie and the rest of method. i know its not for me though.
i love that blizzard WANTS people to see the encounters they put a lot of hard work into, and thus it gives me a chance to raid and have fun with friends, while still seeing content in game and being challenged at my level.

ok i have rambled for far too long now (ive spent like 35 minutes typing :shock: :( :oops: )
all i am going to say to end this is, what are raiders like myself taking away from heroic/mythic raiding?
what is wrong with letting people who pay the same sub as you see the same content, after you and on a much easier level for much lesser rewards?

ok i lied - one last thing
you put in a lot of work and you get rewarded well
you get a dodge charger

someone else doesnt put in as much work, but still wants a dodge
they get a caravan

same company, same form of transportation, you share the same roads
you AND they know yours goes faster, is more impressive, and is for the most part just cooler...are you going to tell them they cant have their caravan just because you want your charger to be special?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:27 am

as far as trying to bring in SC2 for a wow discussion...REALLY? talk about grasping at straws
the fact that blizzard put out both games just shows they typically put out good games.
a RTS =/= a MMO


What? I was talking about the Warcraft strategy series which built the universe and was successful, where did Starcraft get mentioned exactly?

Warcraft is still played to this day by quite a few people, and it spawned Dota.

I'll address your other points later, considering the massive post you made. Just wanted to mention this however.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:56 am

Io.Draco wrote:
as far as trying to bring in SC2 for a wow discussion...REALLY? talk about grasping at straws
the fact that blizzard put out both games just shows they typically put out good games.
a RTS =/= a MMO


What? I was talking about the Warcraft strategy series which built the universe and was successful, where did Starcraft get mentioned exactly?

Warcraft is still played to this day by quite a few people, and it spawned Dota.

I'll address your other points later, considering the massive post you made. Just wanted to mention this however.

yeah i will concede this one, i misread and its early in the morning for me
in the beginning i am sure a lot of the draw for wow was the warcraft games, but how many players are there for them still, and how many wow players currently playing can say they started playing because of warcraft?

i am willing to bet that most started playing because they have friends that play(ed)
i know that is why i started playing..to this day i havent played warcraft beyond just the demo
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:22 am

I think it still plays a role in WoW's continued dominance, not that people come from those games ( although they do still sell and they do work very well even on modern system ) but rather the idea of having a game franchise that has existed for close to two decades is a LOT more appealing then getting into a brand new mmo with a new universe.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:24 am

i cant believe i am saying this but you might be on to something with that one...
but then again, how well did SWToR do? and star wars has been around for a hell of a lot longer :)
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Incalcando » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:05 am

Io.Draco wrote:So be it then.


A) Been said, bears repeating: correlation does not equate causation. WoW was actually the most casual-friendly game back in those days. Remember the horror stories about Absolute Virtue? Yeah.


WoW also managed to have a model that rewarded those who took the time to master it. Blizzard has constantly trumpeted the easy to learn hard to master and that's another reason why it succeeded.

Then there's the argument that WoW also had the success of the strategy series to back it up. A very popular strategy series considered to be one of the finest to this day.


I promised myself my last post would be the last time I'd read/post here. But anyway to your ingenious post. WoW does not reward the people who took time to master it? What else other than THE BEST FUCKING GEAR IN THE GAME do you want? Did TBC raiding award the players with anything else but the best available gear? No. Does an LFR/flex or normal raider even compare in character power to a fully heroic geared one?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:07 am

Well of course it's not everything, the game in itself also needs good word of mouth which SWTOR did not get.

To be fair I think SWTOR had potential but EA's expectations were unrealistic. They thought they could topple WoW within a COUPLE OF MONTHS? I mean even for WoW it took two years to reach 8 million subscribers.

Did TBC raiding award the players with anything else but the best available gear? No.


Actually it did, because you would never be able to see Illidan in BT, Kael in TK, Vashj in SSC unless you were a raider, and you would not be able to complete the story of the game.

Also you would never be able to enter these amazing raid zones like SSC/TK/BT if you were not a raider. There were attunment quests required to enter them after all ( What exactly do you think the Hand of A'Dal title or Champion of the Naaru was rewarded for exactly? They were given to players who had completed the attunments before Blizzard removed them )

As for the BEST GEAR, not that I ever cared that much about gear as a reward, but the gear was not just better but also unique looking with different models instead of just different colors.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:28 am

Ok, now I understand your message.

Edit: Ah, nevermind. I shouldn't argue with idiots, it makes me look like one too.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Teranoid » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:45 am

Yup. Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring your down to their level and beat you with experience.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Flex » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:32 am

bldavis wrote:where do they say they have the largest WOW DEDICATED dev team ever?


if I remember correctly it has been stated that the WoW team now is twice as large as when MoP shipped, or might've been during MoP's development.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:44 am

Yeah. Buffet vs 7 Course Dinner.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:53 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Actually it did, because you would never be able to see Illidan in BT, Kael in TK, Vashj in SSC unless you were a raider, and you would not be able to complete the story of the game.

Also you would never be able to enter these amazing raid zones like SSC/TK/BT if you were not a raider. There were attunment quests required to enter them after all ( What exactly do you think the Hand of A'Dal title or Champion of the Naaru was rewarded for exactly? They were given to players who had completed the attunments before Blizzard removed them )

TK, SSC, MH and BT had stories?!?

As a person who raided for the challenge and chance to hang out with my geographically separated friends... the story never really meant much to me. I get more enjoyment at recognizing an Easter Egg than I do from following the story in an xpac. So clearly, Blizz should remove all story-lines and only have raid encounters and humorous non-story driven quests.

Also... methinks you're forgetting that the attunements for MH/BT were removed (so dirty casuals could see the content.)
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:44 pm

Sure Blizzard did remove them, but close to a year after 2.1 was added.

But yes there was story, weaved into the attunment quests, especially for BT with the story involving Akama/Maiev/Illidan.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby cdan » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:10 pm

You have to admit that there is something kind of lacking in the game when access to all areas is just so easy these days.

I've killed Garrosh about 10 times now across various chars and I'm still waiting for the sense of achievement to kick in.

Finally getting the key to Scholo was more of an event. ;)
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:39 pm

Sure, there's that, but it's not nearly the same as this demand of an exclusive heroic only raid that only Real Raiders will care about, regardless of what may be happening outside of the game, and stating that the lack of an exclusive heroic only raid is why WoW sucks these days and is Blizzard's downfall.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:22 pm

cdan wrote:You have to admit that there is something kind of lacking in the game when access to all areas is just so easy these days.

I've killed Garrosh about 10 times now across various chars and I'm still waiting for the sense of achievement to kick in.

Finally getting the key to Scholo was more of an event. ;)


In all fairness, that's rose colored glasses. When you got that Scholo key, the game was relatively new and fresh. After all these years, if they did that today, you would just complain about the grind to get it probably. Look at the complaints about the legendary cloak quest. That's probably longer that any of those attunement quests, and does it really feel special to anyone now?
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Fetzie » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:06 pm

halabar wrote:
cdan wrote:You have to admit that there is something kind of lacking in the game when access to all areas is just so easy these days.

I've killed Garrosh about 10 times now across various chars and I'm still waiting for the sense of achievement to kick in.

Finally getting the key to Scholo was more of an event. ;)


In all fairness, that's rose colored glasses. When you got that Scholo key, the game was relatively new and fresh. After all these years, if they did that today, you would just complain about the grind to get it probably. Look at the complaints about the legendary cloak quest. That's probably longer that any of those attunement quests, and does it really feel special to anyone now?


The only thing that was special about me getting the cloak, was that I was the first person in the guild to have the legendary version (followed 2 minutes later by somebody else - we made it into a race). The actual quest chain was nowhere near as fulfilling as when I did the Dreadsteed questline on my Warlock.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:44 pm

honestly the joy that the chain was over was about the only enjoyment i got from that chain...
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Darielle » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:37 pm

In all fairness, that's rose colored glasses. When you got that Scholo key, the game was relatively new and fresh. After all these years, if they did that today, you would just complain about the grind to get it probably. Look at the complaints about the legendary cloak quest. That's probably longer that any of those attunement quests, and does it really feel special to anyone now?


Not sure the Legendary quest is really comparable to some of the epic quest chains of old though. The Wrathion stuff has been pretty mired by:
- "PvP in my PvE"!!
- Secrets RNG
- Runestones RNG
- Mandatory 6-week (now 3) pit stop
- Very little compelling individual stuff; even the Shadowmourne chain at least had some interesting modifications to fights. Certainly, nothing comparable to something like Rhok'Delar.

By contrast, some of the BC attunement chains spanned entire zone-wide quest arcs in Shadowmoon or Netherstorm and things that were actually interesting to do for the time (rescuing Millhouse, Executioner etc.). If you gave people a choice between Legendary chain and Tier 0.5 chain to obtain the same cloak, they'd probably take the latter.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Fetzie » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:09 pm

Yeah, let's just consider the Black Temple attunement.

Firstly, you didn't know you were doing it until you were doing it.
It didn't have any quests designed as a time-sink (wait 6 weeks, collect 20 of these things you're only going to get 3 of per week if you are lucky).
It had you do interesting things in your raid, like dressing up as Ashtongue before killing Al'ar.

Or the Challenges of the Naaru, like the Executioner run in shattered halls.

We need that kind of stuff. Not arbitrary "this is only going to take a long time because we decided we want you to spend 5 weeks collecting these quest items" time-sinks. And please, no more "go grind 4000 mobs so you can be exalted on your alt because you really don't want to quest to exalted with a faction that gives you no tangible benefit because we went and made all previous content totally obsolete".
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:14 pm

I do agree with the whole above, but you guys are missing the point of those "collect X items with shit droprate" parts.

They are there to keep people running LFR. If they weren't there, the population of LFR would MASSIVELY drop, and I mean, MASSIVELY, because most chars would run them once (if even) and never set foot in them again, essentially making it impossible to have reliable queue timers for non-current content LFR.

It sounds well, horrible to most LFR haters, but I'm quite sure that's the main reason they are there.
(obviously toghether with it just being a artificial cockblock for heroic guilds to not complete them in the first week)
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Flex » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:41 pm

Fetzie wrote:We need that kind of stuff. Not arbitrary "this is only going to take a long time because we decided we want you to spend 5 weeks collecting these quest items" time-sinks. And please, no more "go grind 4000 mobs so you can be exalted on your alt because you really don't want to quest to exalted with a faction that gives you no tangible benefit because we went and made all previous content totally obsolete".


and then 3 people leave your guide and you're fucked for progression until you can poach from another guild screwing them over or you can attune more people. That's the bad side to attunement chains.
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