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Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:31 pm

halabar wrote:Hereby nominating io.Draco for troll of the year award for keeping this argument going this long, despite nearly everyone disagreeing with him, and for utilization of a years-old dead-horse.


I am not a troll, I am a Paladin Burning Crusade Paladin Main Tank, AKA a stubborn asshole who has a thick skin.

I find this thread useful, allowing me to refine my arguments that I will then use on the Blizzard forums.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:40 pm

And where your arguments fail is that your ideas seem to be based on limitless resources, and you make assumptions based on perceived numbers that only Blizz has access to. If Blizz were to triple their staff, sure, produce a heroic only raid, but what would the monthly sub be then?

Or to put it another way, as a casual raider who may dabble in heroics, I don't want my sub paying for and exclusive heroic only raid that I'll never see. :lol:
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:04 pm

To take a more friendly approach, here's to hoping you'll realize heroic-only content above and beyond "bonus" bosses is counter-productive for Blizzard on a production PoV (good dollar spend on less seen content), and on a subs PoV (because less content for the average Joe Schmoe makes Joe unsub. And for every you and me, there *hundreds* of Joes).

Now, taking GC/Metzen's shoes for a while, I'd want to push for more organized raiding, like you do. But not the way you plan it. What I believe are decent battleplans for those objectives are:

* Bonus content for higher-end raiding à la Algalon/Sinestra/Ra-den, or the special phases of Ragnaros/Sha of Fear/Garrosh. The Heirloom weapons was a nice idea too.
* Never a single raid in a raid patch, if at all possible. Or at the very least two or more very different "styles" during that raid patch (see SoO between Sha of Pride and Galakras). This may help reduce burnout, but I'd keep that plan low on my priority - fairly expensive for a "maybe" effect.
* Make the structural aspect of organized raiding as simple as possible, so that jumping from LFR to guild raiding is as easy as finding a friendly guild that will help you help yourself. In other words, that the only obstacle to organized raiding is finding the will and finding the guild with a timeframe appropriate to yours.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:46 pm

for the most part i agree with Sagara..

im all for high end only content
im all for the better gear coming from higher difficulties

i personally love the change in SoO between sha of pride and galakras, and the similar one (albeit to a lesser extent) between the wings in ToT
you had the troll bosses, the beast bosses, the servant/construct bosses, and the mogu leadership bosses - same instance but different boss types for the most part
i hope they keep that coming, or (better imo) do like they are planning for WoD launch and did for MoP launch and have multiple raid instances

as far as the organized raiding, they are doing that for the most part.
there is no set 10 or 25man size except mythic, so for people like me with just 10 man (currently normal) teams, we can easily accomidate someone we want to have join us.
and the new normal and heroic difficulties means if someone does want to switch to guild from LFR raiding it isnt as big a jump.
they get to see the fights a bit harder, if that isnt enough for them they can jump to what at least i am raiding now and have fights be a bit harder still, and if they are truly dedicated, what is stopping them from trying to get in a mythic guild?


as for the new players wanting to switch to guild raiding, and why they would....well i think a bit could be why i switched from pugs to guild raiding

having a group of people that you can somewhat depend on, and can develop a rapport with, helps immensely with progression, and imo overall fun raiding.
i HATE lfr anymore...i do it on alts mostly to work on their legendary quest chain, or to gear them up so i can bring them in during pug flex raids my guild runs when i dont need anything on my raiding main from that wing (and i am not needed as a tank)


WoW has 7mill+ subs....
how many of those raid, even LFr..
and how many of those raiders are heroic/mythic raiders?
they are a very small percentage of the over all player base.
blizzard has to appease the masses and not just cater to the ultra hard core elite
there was an interveiw several months ago where ..i think it was ghostcrawler..said the average wow subscriber doesnt even have a lvl 90 yet

i would love to see more heroic/mythic only bosses/phases because i do agree that those that put in the extra work deserve a little extra, besides being among the first in the world to see the content and better gear.
but i dont think that should come at the expense of other content...content that those that do not raid period would do and keep paying subs for.
i dont know about every one else that raids, but i dont play wow just for the raiding...i also do a bunch of stuff outside of raiding.
i have alts, i level pets, i use my professions, sometimes i just go run around a zone exploring, and seeing if i can find cool areas, like the fairie ring in the undead starting area, or the abandoned camp overran with bears north of gnomer, or the goblin fishing cabin on the coast of dun morough, or the gnome sheep farmer with a mechanic sheep northeast of SW...just weird little places like that.

you get less of those side activites, you get less casual players
less casual players = less money incoming to blizzard
less money for blizz = less money to pay for the raiding i love to do, and esp less money to pay for the heroic only content...
so if it comes down to mythic only raids, or multiple difficulties of raids...or appeasing some scrub that only gives a shit about seeing the content once and on the piss poor excuse of a fight that is LFR...
appease the scrub, as long as they pay their sub same as me and helps pay for the stuff I like to do in game.

pvp-ers can pvp to their hearts content, pet battlers can level and battle their pets, farmers can farm..and raiders can raid.
who cares what other people do as long as it doesnt affect/hinder what you want to do in game and as long as what you want to do isnt affecting/hindering what others want to do
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:11 pm

On the subject of side activities and the number of developers that would be required to make 3 different raids per tier for different types of raiders..well I would argue that since Blizzard is promoting how they have such a large dev team for Warlords they should prove it.

Now someone earlier mentioned to me how the BC model was unsustainable, I'd argue that current model Blizzard has where they are constantly spamming all kinds of content to keep players interested is a lot more unsustainable then that.

I would like to point out that making more raids but with only one difficulty mode for each may actually be easier then making a raid with 4 difficulty levels. How many bosses does SoO have atm? 14.

I doubt that making 4 extra bosses, if say they were making 3 different raids with 6 bosses each, would actually require that many more developers then current raids right now.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:44 pm

you would also need new art and story leading into the other raids, hopefully new models, and other things that the "devs" dont have anything to do with.

there is also the need for 4 more fights, with different mechanics, different boss arenas, more trash (hopefully they learned from the ToC debacle) and such

now, 14 fights, 1 lfr with a few mechanics missing and numbers lowered, 2 flex size, with numbers adjusting, and one mythic with higher numbers and more mechanics...which is what they do now, all of which will be seen by anyone who raids (at least on LFR)

with your style, 3 different zones, with lore and art leading into them, 6 different bosses with hopefully different mechanics, possibly 18 different models (god forbid they use an old model!) all seen by fewer and fewer people..which goes against stated goals of letting people see content
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:26 pm

Goddamn, I thought one of the perks of being a paladin tank is the ability to adapt to the situation.

Must fall apart into a blithering mess when raid shit goes imperfectly, causing a wipe.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:40 pm

Amirya wrote:Goddamn, I thought one of the perks of being a paladin tank is the ability to adapt to the situation.

Must fall apart into a blithering mess when raid shit goes imperfectly, causing a wipe.

that explains so much about our raiding last expansion...oh wait you said tank not medic..sorry :P
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
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Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Incalcando » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:46 pm

I don't understand this guy. Somehow the game needs exclusive heroic mode instances not accessible to other difficulties? And that is good for the game how? Allowing people to be able to clear the content in 4 different difficulties while giving appropriately better loot the harder you go thus rewarding you greatly, is a bad thing? Is it a bad thing that the game ALSO caters to players who don't want to invest the effort that hardcore raiding requires, WITHOUT taking ANYTHING away from the hardcore crowd?

Just get over yourself, ok TBC provided great content for the hardcore raiding crowd and nobody else. MoP provides great content for everyone, without taking anything away from the competitiveness of hardcore raiding. If anything, boss tuning has been the best there ever was in WoW for heroic modes... I don't think we saw a better expansion than MoP for the hardcore crowd content-wise. And so far for every tier's endboss we got an exclusive heroic-mode only phase or a heroic-mode only boss. That's already quite a lot just to reward a tiny fraction of the raiders, who in turn don't even make the majority of WoW's playerbase...

Now if your idea for good hardcore content is that nobody else can see the story and the bosses, not even in a lower difficulty with SIGNIFICANTLY worse rewards, then I really don't know what's wrong with you.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:46 pm

Io.Draco wrote:On the subject of side activities and the number of developers that would be required to make 3 different raids per tier for different types of raiders..well I would argue that since Blizzard is promoting how they have such a large dev team for Warlords they should prove it.

Now someone earlier mentioned to me how the BC model was unsustainable, I'd argue that current model Blizzard has where they are constantly spamming all kinds of content to keep players interested is a lot more unsustainable then that.

I would like to point out that making more raids but with only one difficulty mode for each may actually be easier then making a raid with 4 difficulty levels. How many bosses does SoO have atm? 14.

I doubt that making 4 extra bosses, if say they were making 3 different raids with 6 bosses each, would actually require that many more developers then current raids right now.


You really have no idea of the resources required.

And on top, now you want to take resources away from the rest of the development effort to make your "I want to feel special raid".

Please stop...
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:48 pm

Incalcando wrote:I don't understand this guy. Somehow the game needs exclusive heroic mode instances not accessible to other difficulties? And that is good for the game how? Allowing people to be able to clear the content in 4 different difficulties while giving appropriately better loot the harder you go thus rewarding you greatly, is a bad thing? Is it a bad thing that the game ALSO caters to players who don't want to invest the effort that hardcore raiding requires, WITHOUT taking ANYTHING away from the hardcore crowd?

Just get over yourself, ok TBC provided great content for the hardcore raiding crowd and nobody else. MoP provides great content for everyone, without taking anything away from the competitiveness of hardcore raiding. If anything, boss tuning has been the best there ever was in WoW for heroic modes... I don't think we saw a better expansion than MoP for the hardcore crowd content-wise. And so far for every tier's endboss we got an exclusive heroic-mode only phase or a heroic-mode only boss. That's already quite a lot just to reward a tiny fraction of the raiders, who in turn don't even make the majority of WoW's playerbase...

Now if your idea for good hardcore content is that nobody else can see the story and the bosses, not even in a lower difficulty with SIGNIFICANTLY worse rewards, then I really don't know what's wrong with you.


He's either trolling, or well.. delusional.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Jezakael » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:31 am

Io.Draco wrote:How about you explain to me then why anyone that's new to the game would ever in their right mind become a normal raider and all that entails.

They would probably do it because their friends in the guild asked them nicely if they could help out. Maybe they would like it and stick with it, maybe they wouldn't and stick to their farming/pet battling. Most I know couldn't care less about possible rewards, they are more afraid of holding the other people back and of regular raid schedules.
LFR and even more so Flex can reduce this reluctance. It gives them opportunity to practice their spec and see bosses in a more forgiving environment, also they can get some gear upgrades so they don't consider lack of equipment as such a big hindrance.

Our guild could quickly enchant/gem someone's gear without even thinking twice. Having two maxed out professions is min/maxing. Min/maxing is an attitude that often develops if you raid challenging content (whatever is challenging for your raid group) but isn't a requirement. If it's already a requirement you're not really talking about normal mode raiding but heroic.
But in the end I'd say the biggest pull into any type of raiding is a social one not because of a unique carrot in front of you.

Of course all of this assumes that you are in a guild or have at least some online friends, failing that the entry barrier is certainly large but I doubt LFR is what keeps people from joining guilds. After all guilds offer a lot even for people below level cap or not interested in raiding of any kind.



As for your proposal for several raid dungeons with differing difficulties. Well, there aren't unlimited resources to throw around so individual raids would have to be smaller. I know I wouldn't like it to just have 6 raid bosses in front of me for the level of challenge my raid can handle. At some point you can reduce your raiding hours to 2 h/week or just cancel it until the next content arrives which will probably cause heavy bleeding in your raid roster. (Not to mention some difficulties with loot tables with this few bosses, see Firelands)

Alternatively you could go back to the Sunwell system where they had to devote considerable amounts of time and money to create art, sound and encounters just so a whopping ~2% of the player base can see it? They stated it's not just that's silly but they just can't defend spending this kind of resources for basically no one. They couldn't defend it even for 25 man mode. LFR was their solution so they did not have to remove it due to economical considerations. I don't know if that's all true but it seems plausible.
LFR and the comparatively huge amount of people participating are what makes developing 25 man content economically viable.

In that sense the new raiding structure make a lot of sense and a lot of players benefit. Everthing can be designed so there is still challenging content for a 20 man raid group (a compromise size), while flex technology allows for casual and semi-hardcore groups having fun in raid sizes they choose or their attendance determines. And of course LFR is still there so that there is an economical justification for all aforementioned people can see a big raid instance at all.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:03 am

He's either trolling, or well.. delusional.


Oh yeah because somehow thinking the system that we had before this shit was better makes you "delusional".

Guess what, it worked. There were million of subscribers and WOW was doing perfectly fine. Whatever anyone else can argue against me the notion that somehow having content only for real raiders would be unrealistic should take look at vanilla and BC.

They stated it's not just that's silly but they just can't defend spending this kind of resources for basically no one. They couldn't defend it even for 25 man mode. LFR was their solution so they did not have to remove it due to economical considerations. I don't know if that's all true but it seems plausible.


To me it just sounds like some CEO or shareholders are breathing down their necks, without realizing that maybe having content for people who actually care to do it properly would not be a bad necessarily.

Of course all of this assumes that you are in a guild or have at least some online friends, failing that the entry barrier is certainly large but I doubt LFR is what keeps people from joining guilds. After all guilds offer a lot even for people below level cap or not interested in raiding of any kind.


There's only a couple of decent raiding guilds ( not talking heroic raiding mind you ), on any given server...the rest...well besides those that invite you as you make your character only a few couple of decent guilds.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Sagara » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:09 am

Let's roll. I've fought myself for nearly a week now, but enough is enough:

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Io.Draco wrote:
He's either trolling, or well.. delusional.


Oh yeah because somehow thinking the system that we had before this shit was better makes you "delusional".

Guess what, it worked. There were million of subscribers and WOW was doing perfectly fine. Whatever anyone else can argue against me the notion that somehow having content only for real raiders would be unrealistic should take look at vanilla and BC.


There's a couple of hangups you need to get over before we cn work any further:

A) Been said, bears repeating: correlation does not equate causation. WoW was actually the most casual-friendly game back in those days. Remember the horror stories about Absolute Virtue? Yeah.
B) Tying into this: that was then, this is now. Tell me exactly how many ultra-hardcore MMO's are currently doing well? ONE, and Eve is not exactly the same as WoW. The name of the current game is casual. Trying to force the public back into an older model will have one, single result: the public leaving.

Actually, I'd argue that if you remember the normal curve of product consumption, and remove that factor from the maths, subs tend to follow not the difficulty, but the amount of readily available content: 3.2 took a hurt. The year-long wait between 3.3 and 4.0 was deadly, and the small amount of content available for Joe Schmoe compounded the problem. 4.1 to 4.3 went okay-ish until the long wait to 5.0.

Io.Draco wrote:
They stated it's not just that's silly but they just can't defend spending this kind of resources for basically no one. They couldn't defend it even for 25 man mode. LFR was their solution so they did not have to remove it due to economical considerations. I don't know if that's all true but it seems plausible.


To me it just sounds like some CEO or shareholders are breathing down their necks, without realizing that maybe having content for people who actually care to do it properly would not be a bad necessarily.


Did it ever occur to YOU that maybe you sound like some "idea person" that is talking out of thin air, never once realizing that maybe there is merit to their choices?
Does my argument sound assinine? That's because it is. That's because I simply swapped your own back at you. You're just trying to deny the other argument without touching it, simply claiming intellectual superiority based on a single argument that is absolutely not backed up. Basically, you sound like "I know better, and you should believe me because I said so!"

Also, just to *really* touch that argument: it's that money you despise so that makes WoW running. I'm betting donuts that if not for LFR, we probably would have had half the bosses we had this expansion, and Blizzcon's announcement would have been:

"Raids - GONE.
NEW - Mythic 5-man: face our greatest challenges in this new and harder version of Heroic.

Yes - TBC Heroics are BACK!"

Io.Draco wrote:
Of course all of this assumes that you are in a guild or have at least some online friends, failing that the entry barrier is certainly large but I doubt LFR is what keeps people from joining guilds. After all guilds offer a lot even for people below level cap or not interested in raiding of any kind.


There's only a couple of decent raiding guilds ( not talking heroic raiding mind you ), on any given server.


Wait, so originally LFR was killing raiding, but now it's the lack of raiding guilds that is killing raiding? Stop changing guns so often, it's hard to keep up...
Newsflash: the moment the amount of "raiding guilds" went down so hard was T14, the *exact* moment when they pushed for harder content for us hardcore.
To blame LFR of all things for our egocentrism is to be ignorant in the extreme. We hardcores made that friggin' bed of so few guilds. If we want things back up, we need something for other publics than us, and we need that yesterday.
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Re: Mythic is NOT a HARDER difficulty than current Heroic!!!

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:50 am

So be it then.


A) Been said, bears repeating: correlation does not equate causation. WoW was actually the most casual-friendly game back in those days. Remember the horror stories about Absolute Virtue? Yeah.


WoW also managed to have a model that rewarded those who took the time to master it. Blizzard has constantly trumpeted the easy to learn hard to master and that's another reason why it succeeded.

Then there's the argument that WoW also had the success of the strategy series to back it up. A very popular strategy series considered to be one of the finest to this day.

Tell me exactly how many ultra-hardcore MMO's are currently doing well? ONE, and Eve is not exactly the same as WoW. The name of the current game is casual. Trying to force the public back into an older model will have one, single result: the public leaving.


Tell me exactly how many casual oriented MMORPGs are doing well right now with a subscription model? The answer would be none.

Rift was one of the very few sub based MMOs that managed to attract a decent crowd of people, reaching about 1 million subs before going F2p and Rift also so happened to be old school wow.

Of course it was a WoW clone through and through, running on a shit engine but it managed alright. It did go F2P but the devs claim it wasn't due to financial issues but fans demanding it. Whether or not you want to believe them ( and I have my personal doubts ) it's up to you.

Also, just to *really* touch that argument: it's that money you despise so that makes WoW running. I'm betting donuts that if not for LFR, we probably would have had half the bosses we had this expansion, and Blizzcon's announcement would have been:


I am absolutely certain Blizzard never managed to justify making a ton of raid bosses before the introduction of LFR in Cataclysm or the introduction of raid difficulty modes in Wrath, oh wait they did actually. You want to talk about numbers?

BC had 50 individual raid bosses give or take a couple, I am talking of all the raid bosses from Kara to SWP

MoP has the glorious number of 43.

BC also had 16 normal and heroic dungeons as opposed to the current 9.

Wait, so originally LFR was killing raiding, but now it's the lack of raiding guilds that is killing raiding? Stop changing guns so often, it's hard to keep up...


It's tied in together. How is LFR a good solid place for any kind of raiding guild to be born? How is the current raiding model something that entices people into forming new guilds to tackle things like normal or heroic?
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