Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Kai » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:49 am

Worldie wrote:The problem of disc priests isn't the fact they add some dps.


huh? I know for a fact with our current tactic (get him to 10% in phase 2 before 2nd intermission starts, get him to 0 in phase 3 before the 2nd emp whirl), we could NOT kill garrosh heroic with 2 non-dps healers in the raid. I only checked the first three kills, but I'm willing to bet a good amount of money that none of the first 50 garrosh 10 heroic kills were done without at least 1 dps-healer (or just 1 healer, 2 tanks, 7 dps, but certainly no 2 real healers). on our kill the disc priest did 59m dmg. the off tank did 122m. that's not exactly a trivial amount.

The smart healing part is a bit annoying, but honestly, I don't really care for my personal healing meter/ranking. as long as no one dies and we beat the encounter, I'm happy enough. and that's all that does, at least I never felt in any encounter as a holy paladin that I was useless in any way. sure, there's some encounters were class X is great and then in encounter Y, something else makes it a bit easier. but I thought overall healing balancing was decent, even shamans were pretty useful in this tier and they got the stick for a few years straight in 10 men.

but that disc + mistweaver can do the same job while doing a very reasonable amount of dps is irritating. I love the idea of making nuking useful. healers should try to get as many nukes in as possible. if some guy does 200k HPS and 0 DPS and another 150k HPS and 50 DPS, the second guy is clearly a better and more useful player for his raid group, as long as no one dies.
but while I want getting as much dmg in as possible to be rewarded, it's just idiotic if it's on par with another healer 'just' healing. that doesn't make any sense to me.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:19 am

I disagree. If you have one guy that does 200k HPS and 0 DPS, and one that does 150k HPS and 50k DPS, which one would fit more would depend on raid comp and performance: a raid which is worse at avoiding damage but has strong dps would prefer the first, while a raid with lower dps but better "stand out of fire" skill would prefer the second.

The problem is that Disc and Mistweaver do BOTH 200k HPS and 50k DPS without losing anything and with usually less overhealing than other healers. They would need a serious nerf to their throughtput, which is where my post is about. (note that Mistweavers are dependant on the legendary meta to fistweave effectively)

Mistweavers have already one "nerf/rework" announced, which is a Stance of the Crane dedicated to fistweaving, so they will have essentially both the strong healer without dps, and medium healer with added dps available and will be able to change accordingly.

The change to smart healing (which is huge) should on his own nerf Disc throughtput significantly. Will be curious to see what else they are bringing to the table on that matter.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:28 pm

Worldie wrote:Think of Hyjal trashs, which is essentially the last remotely challenging trash we had in game.

It was very fun at start, expecially with a prot pala. You needed other tanks to carefully peel abominations, interrupt casters, eventually CC some aboms, etc.


The problem with Hyjal is that it came in waves. You can't do much to control the pace - often you're standing around waiting for the next one, or you're stressed because it's here too soon. Much better that the players are the ones that are moving, but this requires more space (and thus, more art).

edit: The other part is that you get trash "on farm" a lot earlier than the bosses. I've always disliked farm raids, and farm trash is no better. Either they die quickly and it's fine, or they die slow and it's boring, or they don't die at all and it's just frustrating. The problem with all "easy" game play - if you complete it it's just expected, if you fail it's frustrating.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:43 pm

Biggest problem with trash is that it offers no reward (aside from occasional rep or trash drop), so if you put in hard trash, you do a lot of work for essentially no reward.
Hard trash could have actual rewards, but then, what'd be the difference from a boss fight?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Kai » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:17 am

back in hyjal raids were also supposed to be hard, the normal difficulty was heroic. so they could tune trash according to what they expect from dedicated raiding groups. if they wanted to do heroic difficulty trash, they'd have to rework their raid difficulty changing system so that trash is connected to a boss and if you want to do the boss on heroic, you have to do the trash on heroic.
bit too much effort for a gimmick imo.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:21 am

In fact they did say at Blizzcon that Mythic will have Mythic level trash as it's on a separate istance so they can tune it differently (while atm, you could in theory swap to normal, do trash, swap to heroic at boss)

They already have been tuning trash differently in LFR, Flex and Normal/heroic, so it does make sense to have dedicated Mythic trash.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:28 am

Worldie wrote:Biggest problem with trash is that it offers no reward (aside from occasional rep or trash drop), so if you put in hard trash, you do a lot of work for essentially no reward.
Hard trash could have actual rewards, but then, what'd be the difference from a boss fight?


My suggestion would be that hard trash gave you access to a boss that was easier and quicker than fights are nowadays. Kinda like a 5-man boss.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:26 am

That would mean basically redesigning wow completely, since it has always been centered about boss fights and trashs have always been just a timesink.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:01 am

Worldie wrote:That would mean basically redesigning wow completely, since it has always been centered about boss fights and trashs have always been just a timesink.


Yes. I know. And I've come to realize that I think that it's sad :(
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby theckhd » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:50 am

Kai wrote:if they wanted to do heroic difficulty trash, they'd have to rework their raid difficulty changing system so that trash is connected to a boss and if you want to do the boss on heroic, you have to do the trash on heroic.


So.... in other words exactly what they've announced they're doing last BlizzCon, then?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:41 am

theckhd wrote:
Kai wrote:if they wanted to do heroic difficulty trash, they'd have to rework their raid difficulty changing system so that trash is connected to a boss and if you want to do the boss on heroic, you have to do the trash on heroic.


So.... in other words exactly what they've announced they're doing last BlizzCon, then?


Worldie wrote:In fact they did say at Blizzcon that Mythic will have Mythic level trash as it's on a separate istance so they can tune it differently (while atm, you could in theory swap to normal, do trash, swap to heroic at boss)

They already have been tuning trash differently in LFR, Flex and Normal/heroic, so it does make sense to have dedicated Mythic trash.


Slow Theck! :twisted:
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:00 am

The reward for trash is getting to the next boss.

Making trash optional to make the boss easier to do would be very odd. Of course you want the boss to be easier, so you're going to kill the trash. Perhaps once you've overgeared the boss... But that makes it more like "You can skip the trash, but it'll make the boss harder.", kinda like Freya, but without the rewards.

I honestly don't mind tricky trash. Dull and repetitive trash that takes forever is what annoys me. For example, Shamans have a lot of trash, and it's all more or less the same kind of mobs, which mostly consist of focus interrupt/nuke the shadowmages, then AoE the rest down. Nazgrim also has a lot of trash, but it's all different packs, and actually allows you to learn part of the bossfight, which makes that trash more bearable. Though I consider it unfortunate that it's two bosses with a ton of trash in a row.

Scripted trash annoys me to no end, but then, I'm also really annoyed when you get that HC Scenario where you have to follow that panda woman around.

Anyhow, for the Paladin buffs, I remember reading a twitter where they were contemplating giving GoAK to prot, AW to ret and Divine Favor to holy, and buff the individual abilities to keep them in balance. One of the motivations behind it is that the Ret version of GoAK is pretty annoying for melee, having such a big animation in between all the other PCs and pets that are already there.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:16 am

WoD pre-order up.
lvl 90 boost up.
Warlords of Draenor is expected to release on or before 12/20/2014
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:43 am

Still no sign of beta. SoO is looking more and more like ICC.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Amirya » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:17 am

Klaudandus wrote:Warlords of Draenor is expected to release on or before 12/20/2014

"We expect to release Warlords of Draenor sometime between now and the end of the year."
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:28 am

They just gave themselves a large release window so noone can complain about the release date.

That said I don't think there's going to be a beta.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:44 am

To stay a bit on-topic: Really looking forward to scraping the money together for a preorder - I've recently started on a new server with friends, but it's taking ages to level my toon there (no heirlooms, too much Hearthstone, and it's not a tank so I can only take so many dungeons at a time).

I find the idea of no beta interesting - do you think a couple of weeks on the PTR would be enough stress testing?

Thels wrote:The reward for trash is getting to the next boss.


Ex-actly. In my dream trash-focused raid loot can still drop from the bosses, but the focus, the interesting gameplay, is handling the trash packs.

Making trash optional to make the boss easier to do would be very odd. Of course you want the boss to be easier, so you're going to kill the trash. Perhaps once you've overgeared the boss... But that makes it more like "You can skip the trash, but it'll make the boss harder.", kinda like Freya, but without the rewards.


Maybe if the trash was just as hard as the boss fight? That could be a way for everybody to enjoy the boss - skip the trash, get a traditional boss fight. Clear the trash, get a short, sweet 2-minute boss fight that's more a denoument than the main course. Ulduar mechanics could be used here, Freya as mentioned but also how Flame Leviathan works. You could have the option of fighting through the opposing army and activating debuffs (or deactivating buffs) on the way, or you could follow the friendly NPC rogue who found a back door straight to the boss.

I honestly don't mind tricky trash. Dull and repetitive trash that takes forever is what annoys me. For example, Shamans have a lot of trash, and it's all more or less the same kind of mobs, which mostly consist of focus interrupt/nuke the shadowmages, then AoE the rest down. Nazgrim also has a lot of trash, but it's all different packs, and actually allows you to learn part of the bossfight, which makes that trash more bearable.


What if the trash was random? That is, maybe there's 5 or 10 different possible mob types (maybe sorted into either different degrees of challenge or a caster/melee split) and each week the composition of each pack was randomized, subject to some limitations?

Example: In an Ogre citadel you can face orc rogues, warriors, warlocks and shamans, and also ogres, ogre mages and maybe even some small gronns. One pack could always be 7 orcs and 3 ogres/gronns, but the exact type of each would be random. Sometimes an orc or ogre would be replaced by a swarm of weaker orcs instead. And would it be fun if instead of always being 7 orcs there was 7 or 8, and if you saw 7 you could never be sure if it was actually only 7 or if the 8 is a stealthed rogue? Kinda like the Laughing Skull rogues which pop up in Blood Furnace (but you never know if they're there or not).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:08 pm

I just hope there's an annual pass, my beta access luck is terrible -- so unless there's a pass, I might not be able to get all the logs for this round of WoD theorycrafting.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:15 pm

I'm afraid they specifically said at Blizzcon that there'll be no annual pass
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Kai » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:57 pm

Worldie wrote:They just gave themselves a large release window so noone can complain about the release date.

That said I don't think there's going to be a beta.


shooting for the 12+ months without content release. might be time get out, that's just ridiculous. :/
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Amirya » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:25 pm

Ha, my roommate and I are trying to decide if we care that there's a release date of Sometime Before 2015. We both mostly quit playing about 2-3 months ago...and neither of us miss it. Our Alliance guild went all to hell, and we did contemplate the pre-order to boost a Horde toon to 90, but...there's this part of me that asks, "why bother?"

So far, I haven't come across anything that makes me say, "WOW, YES! I want to play this!" Granted, I haven't paid too close attention, but I'm skimming along in hopes I will find that one thing. Garrisons started to be it, until I found out they're the WoD version of the farms, 'cause I wound up hating farms.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby bldavis » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:40 pm

i would agree on the garrisons being farms 2.0, but there is some play with your followers that could be interesting

the farm was just static 16 plots, plant seeds, harvest crops

with the followers and being able to send them on missions, hopefully it will be a bit more interesting, but i am afraid it will just turn into a facebook game in wow
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Amirya » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:10 pm

The followers aren't making me go, "WOW! I WANT!" Unfortunately.

Mostly, I was hoping that I could create a single account-wide garrison (per faction, of course) that all of my toons could access/upgrade/etc. Maybe pay a bit more for the upgrades or whatever. Some days, I just don't want to log in to a particular character, and the appeal of logging in to every single toon to do whatever on the Farmison so it's up to date is more time than I have energy after work.

Ah well. I will continue to skim around and hope.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby bldavis » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:15 pm

i am hoping it is account wide as well, well server wide anyway..
the idea of 20+ garrisons mid to late WoD makes me sick to my stomach
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:48 pm

If they do make it account(server)-wide... would be nice to have an account bank to go along with it... would allow me to have my shared bank AND be in a real guild...
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