Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:32 am

Yep on EU on Twisting Nether horde (tecnically best horde server EU atm)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:40 am

Also keep in mind that Flex was two levels below the highest difficulty level, so the people that actually put an effort into pugging it usually didn't care about making it slightly more or less difficult.

In Warlords, one level below the highest difficulty level will also be Flexible, so groups might struggle with it some more. Therefor, reducing these breakpoints will be more important.

I do imagine they could create a slightly higher ilvl gap between the different difficulty levels from the very start, so that next tiers can still be quite a bit of an upgrade without being an interesting upgrade for higher difficulty levels. For the first tier in each expansion, that will not be an option.

Alternatively, they could start to consider some more serious solution. For example, if you kill boss X on a certain difficulty level, then next week, you will not be eligible for loot for boss X on all lower difficulty levels (as if you looted the boss at the start of the week).



On an unrelated note, how many people that originated on Bloodscalp remain on Twisting Nether?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:05 am

Thels wrote:Also keep in mind that Flex was two levels below the highest difficulty level, so the people that actually put an effort into pugging it usually didn't care about making it slightly more or less difficult.

In Warlords, one level below the highest difficulty level will also be Flexible, so groups might struggle with it some more. Therefor, reducing these breakpoints will be more important.

I do imagine they could create a slightly higher ilvl gap between the different difficulty levels from the very start, so that next tiers can still be quite a bit of an upgrade without being an interesting upgrade for higher difficulty levels. For the first tier in each expansion, that will not be an option.

Alternatively, they could start to consider some more serious solution. For example, if you kill boss X on a certain difficulty level, then next week, you will not be eligible for loot for boss X on all lower difficulty levels (as if you looted the boss at the start of the week).



On an unrelated note, how many people that originated on Bloodscalp remain on Twisting Nether?


I like that concept, but there needs checks and balances or you're going to create serious stress. What happens when your top healer can't make it that week, and you can't repeat that kill on the progression boss? Though love, baby, no downgrading to gear up alts/backups.

I'd honestly say - I'm stumped.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:25 am

Sagara wrote:I like that concept, but there needs checks and balances or you're going to create serious stress. What happens when your top healer can't make it that week, and you can't repeat that kill on the progression boss? Though love, baby, no downgrading to gear up alts/backups.

I'd honestly say - I'm stumped.


Ehh, let's see here.

Let's assume we're talking about a guild that can clear the 6 boss raid instance on mythic since week 12. They did a full clear on week 13 and 14. On week 15, they killed the first 3 bosses, and then stopped for whatever reason, and are unable to continue killing any bosses.

They would be unable to clear the instance on heroic during week 15. Well, technically, they could, but since everyone killed the boss on Mythic during week 14, they won't get any Heroic gear during week 15.

However, they can go in during week 16, and receive loot from the last 3 bosses, as they didn't kill them on mythic during week 15. In addition, they can clear the entire instance on mythic again.

So it basically shifts a week.

I'm also thinking that, for it to work, it would be better to go 1 difficulty level per week, rather than all 3 difficulty levels during one week.

Basically, that would create the following shared loot lockout:
Mythic during week N
Heroic during week N+1
Normal during week N+2
LFR during week N+3

Since you can't go back in time (pun intended), you never have to worry about killing bosses on a certain difficulty level screwing you out of loot from higher difficulty levels, so you don't have to worry about "Can I do Normal today, or do I hope to join a Heroic run tomorrow?".

The only downside is that it might be unclear and unintuitive, so it would require Blizzard making quite clear what bosses people can and cannot loot during this week.



Another, perhaps easier way to look at it, instead of a weekly reset on all the loot, every boss only resets loot on the highest difficulty level that needs resetting.

During week 1, all 6 bosses are eligible for loot on all 4 difficulties. (Not much can be done about that, except pushing LFR to week 2.)

Say you kill all 6 bosses on normal, and kill the first 3 bosses on heroic. You also join some friends and kill the first boss on mythic. At the end of the week, your loot eligibility is:

1st boss: LFR
2nd boss: LFR, Mythic
3rd boss: LFR, Mythic
4th boss: LFR, Heroic, Mythic
5th boss: LFR, Heroic, Mythic
6th boss: LFR, Heroic, Mythic

Then, when the next week starts, each boss resets on the highest difficulty level. Boss 1 resets on Mythic difficulty level, bosses 2 and 3 on Heroic, and bosses 4 to 6 on Normal, so at the start of the second week, your loot eligibility would be:

1st boss: LFR, Mythic
2nd boss: LFR, Heroic, Mythic
3rd boss: LFR, Heroic, Mythic
4th boss: LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic
5th boss: LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic
6th boss: LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic

Now, assuming you're at week 12. You cleared Mythic difficulty, and you killed every single boss on every single difficulty level this week, so you're not eligible for loot for anything. On week 13, you're only eligible for loot for Mythic for all 6 bosses.

But you're taking a well-deserved vacation on week 13, and don't kill any bosses. On week 14, you're eligible for loot for Mythic and for Heroic for all 6 bosses.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Flex » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:08 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
Worldie wrote:Well the few flex pugs I joined just aimed for a proper setup hardly cared about the number.


You are still playing on EU though right?

I've played a few flex raids so far, no one cared about size...but I guess Americans would do it ( they generally care more about stuff like that ).


Yea, that never happens on the EU realms.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Winkle » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:26 am

WTF Thels, that's literally the most complicated lock out system ever devised.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Winkle » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:33 am

Darielle wrote:When the Dark Portal Opened, King Rastakhan send his Zandalari to invade the portal and claim this new world as a new home to replace their dying one. In a silent and deadly strike, they took control of the portal and sent in an army to pave the way.

These Zandalar were forever changed by this SAVAGE world to become SAVAGE trolls. They also allied with the Gronn, who wished to be free of the Iron Horde. Because Gruul.


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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:38 am

Yeah, that lockout system would be impossible to explain. It's hard enough explaining to somebody why they didn't get any Titan Runestones from Sha of Pride.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:41 am

The HC instance lockouts right now are more complex than that. :P

Anyhow, I posted that idea 2 months ago, but I still think it's the most "Clean" way to handle the lockouts, letting everyone play at whatever level suits best for them without having to run lower levels every week, and still not miss out on a single piece of loot.

The rule itself is very simple and short: "Every week, each boss resets the loot lockout on the most difficult level upon which it was locked out."

Explaining the result of those rules might be a little unclear, but I think there would be quite an easy way to make it clear. Provide a panel that lists all bosses for the expansion, sorted with the most recently added raid instance (or world bosses) at the top of the list, then add 4 columns, one for each difficulty level, so each boss has 4 icons behind it. A green icon indicates that you are eligible for loot from that boss. A red icon indicates that you are no longer eligible for loot from that boss. An orange icon indicates that you are no longer eligible for loot from that boss during this week, but you will become eligible for loot from that boss during the next week (assuming you don't kill the boss on higher difficulty levels before the end of the next week.

Mythic of course has instance lockout on top of loot lockout, but since Mythic is the most difficult level, Mythic loot lockout would always reset, so this would not be an issue.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:06 pm

Not happening anyway.

Remember Blizzard's stance about the lockouts: It's *your* problem if you want to run lower difficulties for minimal upgrades. Blizzard expects that if you are a Mythic raider, you only run Mythic and don't care about lower difficulties.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Flex » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:19 pm

Worldie wrote:Not happening anyway.

Remember Blizzard's stance about the lockouts: It's *your* problem if you want to run lower difficulties for minimal upgrades. Blizzard expects that if you are a Mythic raider, you only run Mythic and don't care about lower difficulties.


Every time Blizzard tried to protect players from themselves they get bitched at so why would they try to limit raid and loot lockouts beyond the once per week per difficulty system?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:58 pm

Exactly. They had put the daily limit in place for the same reason you remember? What we got with Cata? People QQing that they couldn't do all the dailies they wanted.
So Blizzard said screw you, we remove the limit, do ALL the dailies you want and don't complain if you hurt yourself
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby jere » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:01 pm

Not to mention being able to do your progression stuff at the high level and still be able to hop on a lower difficulty later on to help out a friend or two or just hang.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:23 pm

Worldie wrote:Exactly. They had put the daily limit in place for the same reason you remember? What we got with Cata? People QQing that they couldn't do all the dailies they wanted.
So Blizzard said screw you, we remove the limit, do ALL the dailies you want and don't complain if you hurt yourself


That said, it wasn't a good idea to have a reputation grind hid behind another reputation grind, just saying.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby bldavis » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:07 pm

if we had access to all the reps at once, and the GL wasnt 20 quests a day by itself..it probably wouldnt have been as bad
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:13 pm

probably.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:02 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Worldie wrote:Exactly. They had put the daily limit in place for the same reason you remember? What we got with Cata? People QQing that they couldn't do all the dailies they wanted.
So Blizzard said screw you, we remove the limit, do ALL the dailies you want and don't complain if you hurt yourself


That said, it wasn't a good idea to have a reputation grind hid behind another reputation grind, just saying.

They did admit the whole GL cockblock stuff was stupid, and it was indeed removed shortly after the launch (was it in 5.1?)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Nooska » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:01 am

Also, if I'm raiding heroic (the current normal) as progression with my group, and don't go one week due to, whatever (lets say RL meetings make me unable to join for week.. happend a few times, so quite realistic) - I would then be locked out of even running "normal" or LFR to look for an upgrade. I just got locked out of running - I can't run the heroic since I'm unavailable, and being heroic progression raiders means I'm not geared and/or skilled to pug it, and the difficulties I could pug are loot locked because I ran heroic last week? "WTF Blizz! GG! WTF!! Ragequit"

Yeah, not a very good system (mainly because its based around the highest level and their 'need' for protection from themselves).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:59 am

Not sure if Blizzard's stance is exactly that. They do want to minimize the reasons to run lower difficulty content, just not at the expense of other people. This loot method is not at the expense of other people, since it still freely allows you to take one step up on the ladder.

It's also only a loot lockout, not an instance lockout. If you want to help some friends at lower difficulty, you can still enter those lower level difficulties and gather some loot there.



Nooska wrote:Also, if I'm raiding heroic (the current normal) as progression with my group, and don't go one week due to, whatever (lets say RL meetings make me unable to join for week.. happend a few times, so quite realistic) - I would then be locked out of even running "normal" or LFR to look for an upgrade. I just got locked out of running - I can't run the heroic since I'm unavailable, and being heroic progression raiders means I'm not geared and/or skilled to pug it, and the difficulties I could pug are loot locked because I ran heroic last week? "WTF Blizz! GG! WTF!! Ragequit"

Yeah, not a very good system (mainly because its based around the highest level and their 'need' for protection from themselves).


That scenario is pretty weird. It assumes that if you are able to attend the Heroic raids, you will not spend time on the Normal raids outside of that to get some more gear, but during the week that you're too busy to attend the Heroic raids, you suddenly do want to go to the Normal raids? It's also not exactly true. If you have only been running Heroic raids, and not Normal raids, then the Normal raid never locked out, so you can still run it.

Also, if you're so super busy that you can't attend the Heroic raids, and the week after you aren't as busy, you could run both Heroic and Normal raids.



It is not exactly a concern for the highest level of progression anymore. Even those raiders that used to do only Normal now find themselves able to do Heroic/Normal/LFR.

Also, during MoP, raid loot was only available on the highest difficulty that you ran. If your guild wanted to get the max out of flex, they would simply run through flex with their full group of mains. In WoD, raid loot is available on Mythic/Heroic/Normal, so if you're a guild that wants to progress Mythic, you could technically run Heroic 5 times with 4 mains and 20 alts, and funnel all gear to the 4 mains...
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:47 am

Thels wrote:Also, during MoP, raid loot was only available on the highest difficulty that you ran. If your guild wanted to get the max out of flex, they would simply run through flex with their full group of mains. In WoD, raid loot is available on Mythic/Heroic/Normal, so if you're a guild that wants to progress Mythic, you could technically run Heroic 5 times with 4 mains and 20 alts, and funnel all gear to the 4 mains...


Yeah, this is why I don't think letting us pick loot system for current flex/future normal is a good idea unless they plan to delay it by several weeks (which would feel kind of weird, being able to clear heroic and mythic before normal).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:07 am

Newsom wrote:
Thels wrote:Also, during MoP, raid loot was only available on the highest difficulty that you ran. If your guild wanted to get the max out of flex, they would simply run through flex with their full group of mains. In WoD, raid loot is available on Mythic/Heroic/Normal, so if you're a guild that wants to progress Mythic, you could technically run Heroic 5 times with 4 mains and 20 alts, and funnel all gear to the 4 mains...


Yeah, this is why I don't think letting us pick loot system for current flex/future normal is a good idea unless they plan to delay it by several weeks (which would feel kind of weird, being able to clear heroic and mythic before normal).


Heroic and Mythic are on separate lockouts, so you could do the same with those 2 difficulty levels.



That said, I do prefer the raid loot option for guild organized runs. Makes it more worthwhile to actually run it as a guild.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Jadhzia » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:56 am

Worldie wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Worldie wrote:Exactly. They had put the daily limit in place for the same reason you remember? What we got with Cata? People QQing that they couldn't do all the dailies they wanted.
So Blizzard said screw you, we remove the limit, do ALL the dailies you want and don't complain if you hurt yourself


That said, it wasn't a good idea to have a reputation grind hid behind another reputation grind, just saying.

They did admit the whole GL cockblock stuff was stupid, and it was indeed removed shortly after the launch (was it in 5.1?)


It was in 5.3, roughly one year after launch, so not so shortly. ;) Quote from wowpedia on the Golden Lotus page:

Patch 5.3.0 (2013-05-21): Shado-Pan and The August Celestials daily quests no longer have a faction prerequisite to be Revered with the Golden Lotus.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Winkle » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:46 am

How are people's guilds rpeparing for WoD anyway (or for the pre WoD patch)?

I guess if you're currently a 25man HC guild or any size non-hc guild you're potentially unaffected, but as a 10m HC guild we're kind of left scratching our heads a litte.

Our first thought was just to recruit enough extra people, which should work fine in theory, unfortunately Doomhammer-EU doesn't really draw much of a crowd these days, finding an additional 10-15 raiders of a similar skill level looks like it might be quite some challenge.

The other obvious solution is a guild merger of some descruiption, again though you need a guild to merge with, and even if we found a match mergers don't have a habit of being particularly smooth.

At this point we're basically resigned to hoping people return to WoW for WOD.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:06 am

While the jump from 10 to 20 man is a big one, I do think it'll be healthy in the long run. It's nearly impossible to join/build a 25 man guild, as everyone is like "Let's just stick to 10 man, easier." Having only one mythic level also does the game good, instead of keeping 10 and 25 man mythic.

That said, it'll certainly be a hurdle for a lot of 10 man HC guilds. Fortunately, you can start normal/heroic with 10 man, and while you're recruiting more people, you can keep on raiding with the entire roster, until you actually have enough people for mythic. Currently, the jump from 10 to 25 is nearly impossible, as you have to bench so many people until you get close to that 25 man.

Though I expect a lot of 10 man HC guilds to fall apart, which means that the remaining 10 man HC guilds can pick up the scraps and get to 20 man. It'll be very bumpy early on in WoD, but after that, it should be a much smoother ride.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Ruldar » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:15 am

Okay, I am deeply confused about something.

I've been hearing rumors that some of the WoD features (the mount, pet, and level 90 boost) will be available significantly in advance of the expansion release if you digitally pre-order through Blizzard. If I order the big box collectors edition from Amazon as I normally do, does this mean I will have to wait for those bits and pieces?
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