Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby jere » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:29 pm

Thels wrote:That is actually the biggest reason I disagree with Jere that heroic/mythic doesn't need better stats. If mythic had better looks, but not better stats, every top-end guild would have to farm all three modes on each char until the end of times, because that normal-warforged/socketed piece would be better than that mythic piece without warforged/socket. It would be serious disaster for them.


To be fair, I never said that was my stance. I asked if they didn't need better stats. Only discussion, nothing more. I'm not a heroic raider anymore so I don't have much of a horse in the race. Only trying to think outside the box was all.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Nooska » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:34 am

What if mythic wasn't a full tier ahead, but only *forged ahead in ilvl (or rather, guaranteed *forged and same base ilvl)?
That would eliminate th eneed for doublerunning to double the chances of the *forged item dropping?

(I'll note I have no skin in the game in regards to lowering the ilvl of mythic, just trying to reply to the concern that arose on Jere's question)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:36 am

It was an idea you brought up, though. Perhaps I should've worded it differently, but it was in no way meant as an accusation.

Either way, I think it's a bad idea, because of the separate lockouts. If the lockouts weren't separate, I might've agreed with it.

And Nooska, I don't think you're right there, either. If Mythic would be the same base ilvl, but guaranteed Warforged, then you'd still run Heroic, because Heroic can still drop Warforged as well, thus more chances to get the right loot.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Nooska » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:38 am

True that.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:04 am

Yeah, the only thing I hate about WoD so far is the new lockout system. Not looking forward to running all difficulties at least twice (probably more) every week at the start of the tier... it has been bad enough this expansion. At least the first instance only has 6 bosses.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Nooska » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:52 am

What am I missing right now? why at least twice?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby lythac » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:31 am

Heroic and Mythic are separate lockouts. No more toggling between difficulties.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Nooska » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:32 am

Yeah, I get that, I'm just wondering why Newsom is saying "[run] all difficulties at least twice (probably more) every week" - I get the concern of running all diff every week at the beginning (gearing up and what not), but running all of them twice per week - what am I overlooking here?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:57 am

At the very high levels, people tend to have multiple toons ready and available for stacking purposes (most basic example is, say melee vs ranged)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:50 am

Heh, when I first read that, I thought he said dungeons. Perhaps he meant dungeons and just goofed up? Or perhaps he is worried about keeping a geared alt?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:12 am

He's worried about having to keep MORE than a single alt geared.

Each alt = run again all 4 difficulties.


Having treckie in my friendlist, I can see him always running Flex LFR and normal/hc on several alts during the week as well. I guess it's for fun though considering it's the last tier :P
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:13 am

Maybe he's getting in BiS gear to be as ready as possible for Warlords release? Would not surprise me.

Oh the insanity of modern day World First raiding.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:16 am

Well considering all the gear will be resetted with leveling, I wouln't know so I think he's just enjoying the well deserved holidays :P
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:44 pm

Nooska wrote:Yeah, I get that, I'm just wondering why Newsom is saying "[run] all difficulties at least twice (probably more) every week" - I get the concern of running all diff every week at the beginning (gearing up and what not), but running all of them twice per week - what am I overlooking here?


Because you can use your mains on infinite runs, it'll work out where you can have severly stacked raids to funnel loot better, using mains to speed up each time.

Let's say that you can adjust your raid comp so that 6 people cover all loot needs.

- Run raid with 6 mains and funnel loot to them.
- Run raid with 6 new mains, the 6 existing mains, funnel loot to new mains.
- Run raid with 6 new mains, 12 existing mains, funnel loot to new mains.
- RUn raid with 6 new mains, 14 existing mains, funnel loot to new mains.
- Run raid with any new mains left + primary alts, 14 existing mains, funnel loot.
.....

Repeat per mode (Heroic and Normal - Mythic won't work this way).

The difference now is that where Normal and Heroic are "the same raid", and because you can only take one character to the raid at the same time, it limits the number of times you personally are inside, on the same character, doing the same old shit. Myself, by around the 3rd time, I'd be bored and wondering if I could solo tank Blackfuse in Blues.

Trolls aren't native to Draenei, so we won't see a lot of Troll NPCs.


When the Dark Portal Opened, King Rastakhan send his Zandalari to invade the portal and claim this new world as a new home to replace their dying one. In a silent and deadly strike, they took control of the portal and sent in an army to pave the way.

These Zandalar were forever changed by this SAVAGE world to become SAVAGE trolls. They also allied with the Gronn, who wished to be free of the Iron Horde. Because Gruul.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:15 pm

Stop giving them ideas >_<
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:22 pm

The Prophet Zul had a vision of Garrosh's deal with Kairoz. Using the BIG BAD VOODOO, he forged a link between himself and Kairoz, such that he was later able to open to portal to Draenor.

When Garrosh's vision of an Iron Horde began to falter under Alliance and Horde onslaught, Zul was waiting. At a critical moment, he opened the portal, and the Zandalari quickly overwhelmed Garrosh and other Chieftains of the Iron Horde, putting themselves in a position of power, and the Iron Horde in their debt. The Zandalari mean to get to their natural place on this new world - rulers, looking down on everyone.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:48 pm

STOP THAT.

Why can't we have an instance where we kill Tauren?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:57 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:STOP THAT.

Why can't we have an instance where we kill Tauren?


Or at least have a steakhouse instance... :D
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Teranoid » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:08 pm

Yknow what Warlords needs?

More troll instances.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:29 pm

Darielle wrote:Let's say that you can adjust your raid comp so that 6 people cover all loot needs.

- Run raid with 6 mains and funnel loot to them.
- Run raid with 6 new mains, the 6 existing mains, funnel loot to new mains.
- Run raid with 6 new mains, 12 existing mains, funnel loot to new mains.
- RUn raid with 6 new mains, 14 existing mains, funnel loot to new mains.
- Run raid with any new mains left + primary alts, 14 existing mains, funnel loot.
.....


That doesn't really work.

The number of loot pieces that drop depends on the number of characters that are eligible for loot. Characters that are on their second (or later) run, are not eligible, so they will not count towards the number of pieces. On your 3rd/4th way through with your plan, you'd get 1-2 pieces, rather than 4 pieces.

Also, with the gear homogenization, especially at the start, you can have at most 4 characters that do not share gear. Cloth/Leather/Mail/Plate with the Tank/Healer/Caster/Physical role.

But yes, that was the first thing that struck my mind, when I noticed there would be a mode without personal loot that was not locked out with the highest difficulty mode. I actually thought that was the main reason they went with personal loot for Flex, to prevent such shenanigans.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:50 pm

Nooska wrote:Yeah, I get that, I'm just wondering why Newsom is saying "[run] all difficulties at least twice (probably more) every week" - I get the concern of running all diff every week at the beginning (gearing up and what not), but running all of them twice per week - what am I overlooking here?


Because alts. Here's how it has been working this expansion for "hardcore" heroic progression guilds:

First week of a tier, only normal mode is available. Since the normal mode gear is superior to previous tier heroic mode gear, we want to get as much of it as possible for heroic progression. The way you do this is to run multiple mixed alt and main raids, and funnel all the gear to the mains. This tier we only had enough alts for 2x25 man raids in my guild, but many guilds run even more (and we would have if we were more prepared). I think Method ran something like 6 mixed alt/main raids the first week of normal mode.

We even continued this the first few weeks of heroic progression this tier since the gear gap was so enormous (thanks to flex) plus overpowered trinkets. We kill one boss on heroic, then all the mains who sat out + alts to fill the raid kills the boss again on normal. Repeat for the next boss.

It's not super fun, but if you want the gear needed to get a leg up this is how it works. It will be even worse in WoD (at least the first tier when people are in blues) with the added "fun" of Normal (current Flex) mode on top of this. No forced personal loot means we can funnel more gear to mains using alts.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:21 pm

That sounds horrible. I would argue this is the most pertinent reason to reduce ilvls a bit so normal/heroic gear has no attraction for mythic raiders.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:35 pm

That was part of the argument in favor of having Flex gear be worse than Normal gear from the previous tier, just so they wouldn't feel tempted to run content.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:36 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:That sounds horrible. I would argue this is the most pertinent reason to reduce ilvls a bit so normal/heroic gear has no attraction for mythic raiders.


Yeah. Wouldn't hate the idea of only allowing personal loot in Normal mode (current Flex) either. I think it has worked out great that way this tier.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:37 pm

At BlizzCon, we'd discussed some improvements to our Flexible scaling system that would minimize the existence and impact of any real or perceived "breakpoints." Our design goal has always been for the system to be neutral with respect to group size. Specifically, you should never feel encouraged to turn away interested players whose skill/gear level matches the rest of the group's, basic role composition constraints notwithstanding. But at the same time, you shouldn't feel like you need to go out and grab warm bodies if you have a perfectly serviceable raid already assembled. Clearly we have not yet fully realized those goals.

In general, the existing healing/damage scaling slightly favors larger groups, since boss health and damage scale up more slowly than does raid throughput. To use a specific example, an 18-player raid with 12 damage-dealers will kill a boss slightly faster than a 10-player raid with 6 damage-dealers (assuming equal skill/gear between the two groups). But it is true that currently some specific abilities exhibit breakpoints, where adding an extra player causes an extra add to spawn, or an ability to strike an additional target.

To help smooth out difficulty scaling as you add or remove players from your Flexible raid, we will be implementing one of our planned Warlords changes to the scaling system ahead of schedule. In the near future, several boss abilities that target more players as the size of a Flex raid increases will use weighted randomization rather than strict breakpoints.

An example to illustrate what I mean:

Today, Sun Tenderheart's Shadow Word: Bane ability afflicts 2 targets if your raid size is between 10 and 14, but begins to hit a third target at 15.

Once our upcoming change is in place, if you have a 13-player raid, there will be a 60% chance for each cast of the ability to hit 3 targets, and a 40% chance for it to hit 2. If you add an extra player, and thus have 14, there will now be an 80% chance for 3 debuffs to go out, and a 20% chance for only 2.

In short, with respect to this particular ability, adding an extra player will always give you an average of 0.2 extra Bane debuffs. No more breakpoints!

There will be a handful of exceptions where breakpoints remain necessary. Imprison on Sha of Pride is probably the most notable such example, where you really want to pre-plan who will cover which prisons, and having a random number of targets each cast would cause frustrating unpredictability.

There's nothing wrong with 14-player groups -- 14 players is a great size for a raid. But so is 15. And 19. And 12. And 22. We just want to help make sure that good players aren't being turned away from groups because of the notion that their presence will make things harder for everyone.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... ?page=4#77
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