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Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Flex » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:29 pm

Worldie wrote:Just "changing mechanics" isn't exactly easy. Even adding a extra add, or a extra ability, means extra DPS / Healing / Survivability is needed, and you counter it either with raid stacking (which they want to avoid), or by increasing gear level.

You can't increase the difficulty of a fight without demanding better gear.


Heroic maybe not doing that, but Mythic might get stacking/required classes back into the meta game.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:33 pm

Required classes is fine. Forcing raids to stack warlocks like in M'Uru / Yogg+0 however, would destroy their purpose of the player>class.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby bldavis » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:34 pm

Flex wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:Devs are kind of stuck. "How do we make these things awesome, but keep them rare, but also not generate a huge amount of angst around items?"


My guess will be gem slots will not be a random roll at the end of the beta cycle or gems are so minimal there won't be a huge delta between warforged+gems and war forged.

This is a situation where balanced design would have to be taken over cool/neat design.

one way though could avoid that is having warforged and a gem socket mutually exclusive (i think that is the right term)
you can have a piece be warforged and extra ALL stats on the item OR have the base item with a gem socket to add your spec's best stat to it
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby jere » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:43 pm

Worldie wrote:You can't increase the difficulty of a fight without demanding better gear.


Sure you can. Difficulty can come in all kinds of forms. Shoot, even though all the heroic dungeons are tuned to the same gear level, some typically are harder than others. I do agree it would be difficult without needing better gear, but you can still accomplish it

However, the point of the question was to get discussion on whether or not the higher ilvl/stats on gear was the "carrot on the stick" that heroic (I guess now mythic) raiders need as a reward for the tougher fights or could something else be driving factor (I'm sure some just like the challenge). If higher stats aren't necessarily what drives most heroic raiders, then there might be some room to keep ilvls closer without making heroic/mythic raiders lose incentive. I haven't done any heroic raiding since Wrath, so my opinion isn't as relative. For me, I wouldn't need the higher stats. I like the challenge personally. But not everyone is like me and I'm not really current anymore.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:01 pm

Worldie wrote:You can't increase the difficulty of a fight without demanding better gear.


Of course you can. Increasing the difficulty linearly with gear level is a new tier, not a higher difficulty.

If doing heroic mode in last tiers heroic gear was exactly as difficult as doing normal mode in last tiers normal gear, what's the point of having two modes?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:12 pm

Do you think they'll stick with Heroic.T# < Normal.T#+1?

Personally I rather hope they don't. I think it leads to too much ilvl inflation, and making "normal mode" loot at all relevant to "heroic mode" raiders isn't ideal for anyone. I would argue that ideally normal.T#+1 should be half a step above Heroic.T#, if not flat-out equivalent. The size of the steps is up for debate, of course.


I can't foresee them changing their minds on it to any significant degree. They've long held that even Heroic mode raiders should have something to look forward to before they get the new instance on farm in Heroic.

Required classes is fine. Forcing raids to stack warlocks like in M'Uru / Yogg+0 however, would destroy their purpose of the player>class.


It's not like that ever really went away. Frankly, isn't required classes MORE of an issue than stacking classes for player > class? Because calling raid because your Mage walked into a tree and absolutely no one can mimic Spellsteal has to be much more annoying than having to make do with a suboptimal class.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:52 am

Paxen wrote:
Worldie wrote:You can't increase the difficulty of a fight without demanding better gear.


Of course you can. Increasing the difficulty linearly with gear level is a new tier, not a higher difficulty.

If doing heroic mode in last tiers heroic gear was exactly as difficult as doing normal mode in last tiers normal gear, what's the point of having two modes?

Think of it: would Immerseus hc be so easy if you werent in full 541+ but were in 500 ilvl with 200k less hp and a ton less dps?
It's quite obvious that hc fights require more gear than their normal modes.
The average hc raiders cannot really win fights without better gear: only top ranked guilds are strong enough to win while undergeared (often having to use class stacking, hello 8 arcane mages with legendary on spine?)

(I used immerseus as it's exactly the same in hc, just an added mechanic)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:28 am

wondering how you arrived at the 500 ilvl mark :?
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby jere » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:36 am

Worldie wrote:Think of it: would Immerseus hc be so easy if you werent in full 541+ but were in 500 ilvl with 200k less hp and a ton less dps?
It's quite obvious that hc fights require more gear than their normal modes.
The average hc raiders cannot really win fights without better gear: only top ranked guilds are strong enough to win while undergeared (often having to use class stacking, hello 8 arcane mages with legendary on spine?)

(I used immerseus as it's exactly the same in hc, just an added mechanic)


Think about it from a different angle. Don't use normal mode as the baseline. Take a heroic/mythic fight perfectly balanced as the baseline. Hard enough that it takes the best dps/skill to kill using the intended gear. Having any slightly mediocre people in your group means you won't meet an enrage timer or you'll get raid wipes early. If the normal mode had access to the same level of gear but toned down mechanics and boss stats, it would by default be easier.

Given that as the scenario, if the heroic/mythic had the increased challenge and the rewards weren't higher ilvl but were different in some other way (looks completely different from any normal mode, had special effects, etc.), would that be a good enough incentive for heroic/mythic raiders (or if not, what might be)? I.E. is higher level gear the only or most important incentive for doing heroic raids or can something else work allowing the ilvls to not grow as quickly. The sky's the limit on what that incentive needs to be except for the gear being more "powerful".

I realize you can nit pick all day on it, but I'm more interested is there even a possible way to incentivize it without "more powerful gear" to begin with, regardless of how easy/hard it is to make the normal/heroic/mythic modes differ in difficulty.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:19 am

The thing is... imagine Mythic only gave different looking stuff, or an achievement, or mount, or w/e instead of higher ilvl gear.
You clear it, you win what you wanted. Now, why do you run it again?

All the guilds would stop raiding a tier as soon as finishing it. Would destroy the content longevity.

With higher Ilvl gear, even the top notch guild who clears the raid the week it's available is incentivized to re-run it because higher ilvl gear will make approaching the following tier easier.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby jere » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:33 am

They wouldn't keep beating the bosses trying to get a full set of the different looking gear or a particular item with an effect they want that hasn't dropped yet?

Also, is that the only thing that would keep them interested? I'm not a heroic/mythic raider, so this is just a question, but what if all mythic raids were recorded (dps, time, etc...not video, but think world of logs styleish) and ranked automatically? Would there be drive to keep going each week to try and beat out others in the ranking?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:42 am

Essentially yes. After a few clears, it gets quite boring to reclear everything knowing 90% of the gear that drops (which is a ilvl upgrade) will be dissed anyway, but you still do it because the more gear you got, the easier next tier will be.
Many guilds once they got the achievement for the hc kill for everyone used to start ditching heroic to do the glory achis. Not sure if that's still the case with Flex though as I quit serious raiding at 9/14 hc.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Darielle » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:35 pm

Essentially yes. After a few clears, it gets quite boring to reclear everything knowing 90% of the gear that drops (which is a ilvl upgrade) will be dissed anyway, but you still do it because the more gear you got, the easier next tier will be.
Many guilds once they got the achievement for the hc kill for everyone used to start ditching heroic to do the glory achis. Not sure if that's still the case with Flex though as I quit serious raiding at 9/14 hc.


Many people probably Openraided their Glory the week Wing 4 Flex came out, if they particularly cared about it.

The thing is... imagine Mythic only gave different looking stuff, or an achievement, or mount, or w/e instead of higher ilvl gear.
You clear it, you win what you wanted. Now, why do you run it again?

All the guilds would stop raiding a tier as soon as finishing it. Would destroy the content longevity.

....

Essentially yes. After a few clears, it gets quite boring to reclear everything knowing 90% of the gear that drops (which is a ilvl upgrade) will be dissed anyway, but you still do it because the more gear you got, the easier next tier will be.


I don't know that I'd say content longevity has anything to do with whether people farm stuff that's on full clear or not. Pretty much at the time Madness Heroic or Rag Heroic or anything dies, people are bored with the instance. Doing it again and again doesn't make the content last any longer, it's just .... what else would you do?

Right now, the whole "get everyone mounts" is about it, and then everyone takes a break anyway if you're at the point where everyone has mounts, or they sell runs. By this point, even alts are basically decked out if a guild actually maintains alts.

I'd say that selling runs seems to be a far bigger incentive to keep farming than the 10% shot at getting that last trinket for one person.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby halabar » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:26 pm

My 50g says the new Iron skyclaw chimera of rocket doom is the WoD CE mount.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Qeeze » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:49 pm

Darielle wrote:Many people probably Openraided their Glory the week Wing 4 Flex came out, if they particularly cared about it.


The graph on MMO, shows only 0.36% of all WoW players have completed Glory of the Orgimmar Raider Achievement.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/3608-Armory-Stats-Player-Raid-Completion-Blue-Tweets-Poll-World-PvE-Content-Fan-Art?page=7#comments
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