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Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:08 am
by Sagara
By brain activate, do you mean "Pull out the stat priorities you and others have calculated then pull ReforgeLite"?

Let's be honest, the real work pre-raid has always been the theorycrafting, not the actual application of the selfsame theory in-game.

I'd have rather bashed my head another half-hour on an Heroic Raid Boss, or maybe actually do silly stuff with friends to unwind from the seriousness of raiding, thank you very much.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:10 am
by fuzzygeek
I suspect jewelry will be, well, jewelry, and likewise gemmed. So, two ring sockets and a necklace.

I hope they remove the idea of random bonus gem sockets on other gear. This would probably require them to make the gem values too small to matter, or gemmed items will be too powerful and angsty. Or maybe the devs will enjoy the random uberpowerful pieces being rare, and the idea that you can never kill a boss on an alt until after you've done it on your main (assuming desirable items exist on its loot table) is a feature and not a horrible design choice.

Arguing that since JC has been a great moneymaker in the past means they don't "deserve" compensation in the future is nonsensical. Frankly, no profession "deserves" compensation for anything -- the game changes: deal with it. If JC becomes useful for pre-raid (bop crafted items with an entry-level raid ilvl etc.) I'll keep it until it's no longer useful, then ditch it for something useful.

Same as it ever was.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:25 am
by Worldie
Reforging had nothing to do with brain. Unless you were one of the handful people who actually calculated all the reforging on their own (and I have no idea of the math behind it), for 99% of wow population reforging consisted in eitehr clicking 1 button on ReforgeLite, or copying reforges from a website.

Reforging was a good idea in paper, but with the caps in play, it just ended up being a boring thing to do. With caps removed, it would just end up in "reforge lowest prio stat to highest prio available": again, no brain involved in this.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:36 am
by fuzzygeek
The idea behind reforging was good -- if something with sub-optimal stats dropped, or if the itemization team hated your class and didn't give you anything properly designed, you could still modify it so it was less horrible.

Reforging's interplay with hit/xpt caps is what made it utterly horrible, and the massaging of numbers around the caps overshadowed its other -- and still quite useful -- purpose: e.g.,making that crit/haste piece more useful to us.

I hope they keep reforging in. It would still be useful. Classes that deal with breakpoints would still need addons to deal with math if they wanted to min/max, but they could still put on a new piece of gear as soon as they got it.

I guess breakpoints are similar to the Cap problem, now that I think about it. I wonder if there isn't some better mechanic to use that doesn't introduce breakpoints at all.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:37 am
by Paxen
fuzzygeek wrote:I hope they remove the idea of random bonus gem sockets on other gear. This would probably require them to make the gem values too small to matter, or gemmed items will be too powerful and angsty. Or maybe the devs will enjoy the random uberpowerful pieces being rare, and the idea that you can never kill a boss on an alt until after you've done it on your main (assuming desirable items exist on its loot table) is a feature and not a horrible design choice.


To the contrary, they've already said that gem slots will probably be *more* valuable than today. Consider that it works the same as a warforged item - that's pretty powerful, isn't it?

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:26 am
by halabar
Paxen wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:I hope they remove the idea of random bonus gem sockets on other gear. This would probably require them to make the gem values too small to matter, or gemmed items will be too powerful and angsty. Or maybe the devs will enjoy the random uberpowerful pieces being rare, and the idea that you can never kill a boss on an alt until after you've done it on your main (assuming desirable items exist on its loot table) is a feature and not a horrible design choice.


To the contrary, they've already said that gem slots will probably be *more* valuable than today. Consider that it works the same as a warforged item - that's pretty powerful, isn't it?


This. The sockets will be rarer, and they will be one of the random procs on specific slots. It's just an extension of the warforged idea. Add more chances that there still can be better loot, a bit more like D3.

Crafted gear supposedly will be able to proc those tertiary bonuses as well.

Question is, will JCers still have their bonus gems, and will BS's still have two bonus sockets?

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:29 am
by halabar
fuzzygeek wrote:The idea behind reforging was good -- if something with sub-optimal stats dropped, or if the itemization team hated your class and didn't give you anything properly designed, you could still modify it so it was less horrible.

Reforging's interplay with hit/xpt caps is what made it utterly horrible, and the massaging of numbers around the caps overshadowed its other -- and still quite useful -- purpose: e.g.,making that crit/haste piece more useful to us.

I hope they keep reforging in. It would still be useful. Classes that deal with breakpoints would still need addons to deal with math if they wanted to min/max, but they could still put on a new piece of gear as soon as they got it.

I guess breakpoints are similar to the Cap problem, now that I think about it. I wonder if there isn't some better mechanic to use that doesn't introduce breakpoints at all.



They supposedly are going to remove breakpoints as much as possible, as well as dot snapshotting, so we shouldn't get variable breakpoints like we currently have, only diminishing return caps on crit and haste.

So no need to reforge..

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:34 am
by Flex
Klaudandus wrote:we are not talking about compensating us for loss of revenue. we're talking about a profession bonus that might be useless unless the RNG gods smile on us and give us gem slots on the gear that drops -- otherwise, our bonus is wasted.


My point is it won't be wasted because they aren't that dumb so complaining about it like it is a foregone conclusion is silly.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:38 am
by Flex
oldboyz wrote:well.. for me, it is part of the fun to change my stuff :mrgreen: one of the few moment where my brain activate, otherwise this game is pretty much boring :mrgreen:

what people seems to forget is that you dont need to be 100% optimized all the time... understand a new fight and better raid coordination is far more effective :wink: (almost the same who deadly need stuff because they lack confidence in their real skill)


so yes, WoD look to much too much simplier at the moment, one more simplification, and Wow will be as complex as Sim's ! :shock:


Do you actually math out your ratings and stuff when you reforge or do you do it via add-on?

Ultimately Amplify is there for all your math needs. It is a stat that makes other stats better but having too much Amplify means you'll end up having less base stats to make better. Find the right balance should prove a decent challenge.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:49 am
by fuzzygeek
halabar wrote:They supposedly are going to remove breakpoints as much as possible, as well as dot snapshotting, so we shouldn't get variable breakpoints like we currently have, only diminishing return caps on crit and haste.

So no need to reforge..


Oh, so that removes one of my remaining reservations. I still want reforging so I can make a crit/haste piece into a mastery/crit/haste piece.

And yes, I know they said gem sockets are going to be powerful. I'm curious if a warforged gemsocketed piece then becomes effectively the same ilvl as the next tier. I don't know that this is a good thing.

Devs are kind of stuck. "How do we make these things awesome, but keep them rare, but also not generate a huge amount of angst around items?"

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:31 pm
by Flex
fuzzygeek wrote:Devs are kind of stuck. "How do we make these things awesome, but keep them rare, but also not generate a huge amount of angst around items?"


My guess will be gem slots will not be a random roll at the end of the beta cycle or gems are so minimal there won't be a huge delta between warforged+gems and war forged.

This is a situation where balanced design would have to be taken over cool/neat design.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:15 pm
by Darielle
And yes, I know they said gem sockets are going to be powerful. I'm curious if a warforged gemsocketed piece then becomes effectively the same ilvl as the next tier. I don't know that this is a good thing.

Devs are kind of stuck. "How do we make these things awesome, but keep them rare, but also not generate a huge amount of angst around items?"


It's very likely that since they're still using 4 modes and they're not constrained to 13 ilvl differences between Normal mode to Normal mode, and their tendency has been to put new Tier Normal well alove old Tier Heroic that this won't be a concern.

Even a Warforged Gemsocket 543 won't really compare to a 566 - in equivalent terms. It'd be less likely to be overshadowed by a 553 however.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:28 pm
by fuzzygeek
Darielle wrote:It's very likely that since they're still using 4 modes and they're not constrained to 13 ilvl differences between Normal mode to Normal mode, and their tendency has been to put new Tier Normal well alove old Tier Heroic that this won't be a concern.


Do you think they'll stick with Heroic.T# < Normal.T#+1?

Personally I rather hope they don't. I think it leads to too much ilvl inflation, and making "normal mode" loot at all relevant to "heroic mode" raiders isn't ideal for anyone. I would argue that ideally normal.T#+1 should be half a step above Heroic.T#, if not flat-out equivalent. The size of the steps is up for debate, of course.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:45 pm
by jere
Here's a question: Does heroic gear need to be significantly higher in ilvl/stats than normal? Can the distinction be something different (completely different look, some other perk, etc?)? Difficulty can be increased by changing mechanics instead of just damage output/input changes. Would heroic raiders be ok if their gear was the same power level as normal mode but had some sort of unique look/bonus that normal gear didn't instead?

Just something to consider.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:27 pm
by Worldie
Just "changing mechanics" isn't exactly easy. Even adding a extra add, or a extra ability, means extra DPS / Healing / Survivability is needed, and you counter it either with raid stacking (which they want to avoid), or by increasing gear level.

You can't increase the difficulty of a fight without demanding better gear.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:29 pm
by Flex
Worldie wrote:Just "changing mechanics" isn't exactly easy. Even adding a extra add, or a extra ability, means extra DPS / Healing / Survivability is needed, and you counter it either with raid stacking (which they want to avoid), or by increasing gear level.

You can't increase the difficulty of a fight without demanding better gear.


Heroic maybe not doing that, but Mythic might get stacking/required classes back into the meta game.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:33 pm
by Worldie
Required classes is fine. Forcing raids to stack warlocks like in M'Uru / Yogg+0 however, would destroy their purpose of the player>class.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:34 pm
by bldavis
Flex wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:Devs are kind of stuck. "How do we make these things awesome, but keep them rare, but also not generate a huge amount of angst around items?"


My guess will be gem slots will not be a random roll at the end of the beta cycle or gems are so minimal there won't be a huge delta between warforged+gems and war forged.

This is a situation where balanced design would have to be taken over cool/neat design.

one way though could avoid that is having warforged and a gem socket mutually exclusive (i think that is the right term)
you can have a piece be warforged and extra ALL stats on the item OR have the base item with a gem socket to add your spec's best stat to it

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:43 pm
by jere
Worldie wrote:You can't increase the difficulty of a fight without demanding better gear.


Sure you can. Difficulty can come in all kinds of forms. Shoot, even though all the heroic dungeons are tuned to the same gear level, some typically are harder than others. I do agree it would be difficult without needing better gear, but you can still accomplish it

However, the point of the question was to get discussion on whether or not the higher ilvl/stats on gear was the "carrot on the stick" that heroic (I guess now mythic) raiders need as a reward for the tougher fights or could something else be driving factor (I'm sure some just like the challenge). If higher stats aren't necessarily what drives most heroic raiders, then there might be some room to keep ilvls closer without making heroic/mythic raiders lose incentive. I haven't done any heroic raiding since Wrath, so my opinion isn't as relative. For me, I wouldn't need the higher stats. I like the challenge personally. But not everyone is like me and I'm not really current anymore.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:01 pm
by Paxen
Worldie wrote:You can't increase the difficulty of a fight without demanding better gear.


Of course you can. Increasing the difficulty linearly with gear level is a new tier, not a higher difficulty.

If doing heroic mode in last tiers heroic gear was exactly as difficult as doing normal mode in last tiers normal gear, what's the point of having two modes?

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:12 pm
by Darielle
Do you think they'll stick with Heroic.T# < Normal.T#+1?

Personally I rather hope they don't. I think it leads to too much ilvl inflation, and making "normal mode" loot at all relevant to "heroic mode" raiders isn't ideal for anyone. I would argue that ideally normal.T#+1 should be half a step above Heroic.T#, if not flat-out equivalent. The size of the steps is up for debate, of course.


I can't foresee them changing their minds on it to any significant degree. They've long held that even Heroic mode raiders should have something to look forward to before they get the new instance on farm in Heroic.

Required classes is fine. Forcing raids to stack warlocks like in M'Uru / Yogg+0 however, would destroy their purpose of the player>class.


It's not like that ever really went away. Frankly, isn't required classes MORE of an issue than stacking classes for player > class? Because calling raid because your Mage walked into a tree and absolutely no one can mimic Spellsteal has to be much more annoying than having to make do with a suboptimal class.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:52 am
by Worldie
Paxen wrote:
Worldie wrote:You can't increase the difficulty of a fight without demanding better gear.


Of course you can. Increasing the difficulty linearly with gear level is a new tier, not a higher difficulty.

If doing heroic mode in last tiers heroic gear was exactly as difficult as doing normal mode in last tiers normal gear, what's the point of having two modes?

Think of it: would Immerseus hc be so easy if you werent in full 541+ but were in 500 ilvl with 200k less hp and a ton less dps?
It's quite obvious that hc fights require more gear than their normal modes.
The average hc raiders cannot really win fights without better gear: only top ranked guilds are strong enough to win while undergeared (often having to use class stacking, hello 8 arcane mages with legendary on spine?)

(I used immerseus as it's exactly the same in hc, just an added mechanic)

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:28 am
by bldavis
wondering how you arrived at the 500 ilvl mark :?

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:36 am
by jere
Worldie wrote:Think of it: would Immerseus hc be so easy if you werent in full 541+ but were in 500 ilvl with 200k less hp and a ton less dps?
It's quite obvious that hc fights require more gear than their normal modes.
The average hc raiders cannot really win fights without better gear: only top ranked guilds are strong enough to win while undergeared (often having to use class stacking, hello 8 arcane mages with legendary on spine?)

(I used immerseus as it's exactly the same in hc, just an added mechanic)


Think about it from a different angle. Don't use normal mode as the baseline. Take a heroic/mythic fight perfectly balanced as the baseline. Hard enough that it takes the best dps/skill to kill using the intended gear. Having any slightly mediocre people in your group means you won't meet an enrage timer or you'll get raid wipes early. If the normal mode had access to the same level of gear but toned down mechanics and boss stats, it would by default be easier.

Given that as the scenario, if the heroic/mythic had the increased challenge and the rewards weren't higher ilvl but were different in some other way (looks completely different from any normal mode, had special effects, etc.), would that be a good enough incentive for heroic/mythic raiders (or if not, what might be)? I.E. is higher level gear the only or most important incentive for doing heroic raids or can something else work allowing the ilvls to not grow as quickly. The sky's the limit on what that incentive needs to be except for the gear being more "powerful".

I realize you can nit pick all day on it, but I'm more interested is there even a possible way to incentivize it without "more powerful gear" to begin with, regardless of how easy/hard it is to make the normal/heroic/mythic modes differ in difficulty.

Re: Warlords of Draenor

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:19 am
by Worldie
The thing is... imagine Mythic only gave different looking stuff, or an achievement, or mount, or w/e instead of higher ilvl gear.
You clear it, you win what you wanted. Now, why do you run it again?

All the guilds would stop raiding a tier as soon as finishing it. Would destroy the content longevity.

With higher Ilvl gear, even the top notch guild who clears the raid the week it's available is incentivized to re-run it because higher ilvl gear will make approaching the following tier easier.