Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Era » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:27 am

Fair enough. I'll allow it.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:35 am

That being said, the best thing about WoW's movement system (to me) is how accurate it feels. I can inch my way in any direction, and when I stop running, I stop running RIGHT there on the spot. Jumping too, feels very nice and tight.


Quite true really and one of many reasons WoW is still the king of MMOs in terms of quality.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Shoju » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:05 am

A non players opinion, who combed the bits on MMO-C:

Heroic Raiding (mythic) being 20m only is really shitty.
Garrisons are interesting.
Do I understand it correctly, that with the expac, you GET a level 90 character? seems odd.
NO daily's at 100. Finally, they realized how sucktastic daily's really were.
Item Squish, while needed, is sort of /yawn.
New stat types on gear is... "eh? what?" Cleave?
New Models = Cool. Are they doing all the models? or just the two on MMO-c?
Garrosh Escapes? WTF.... That bitch should have died.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:26 am

All the races from Vanilla and TBC are getting updated. They said they might consider updating goblins and worgen if they have spare resources / time for it.
Garrosh was going to be killed by Thrall or Wrynn, but the Pandaren decided that since they got hurt the most, they would decide of his fate.


And, 20 men only, while it might seemb silly, is the right choice. They talked several times about how much of a nightmare it is to tun 2 different "hardcore" sizes, and how expecially 10 men is too damn setup dependant for several of the fights. Having a fixed size will allow them to properly tune fights without having to completely remove or rework mechanics all the time.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:33 am

On the one hand, Garrosh? Yeah, I agree w/ Shoju.

On the other, it speaks a lot about the pandarens' belief in calm and not letting violence be the answer. Probably from all those generations of dealing with the sha, but still.

Thrall was all for insta-kill, and Varian was portrayed as heading for the same way, until Taran spoke up.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:40 am

I'm all in favor to actually conclude the Pandaria arc ONLY when we face Garrosh and state:

"Find Balance and Harmony... And sometime, it's all about Balancing a BIG hammer in Harmony...

WITH YOUR FACE! *Thunk*"
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:48 am

Worldie wrote:And, 20 men only, while it might seemb silly, is the right choice. They talked several times about how much of a nightmare it is to tun 2 different "hardcore" sizes, and how expecially 10 men is too damn setup dependant for several of the fights. Having a fixed size will allow them to properly tune fights without having to completely remove or rework mechanics all the time.

Just adding, I don't mean that it's a "easy" pass. It WILL hurt guilds a lot, both 10 and 25 ones. But in the long term, it's the right choice. 10 men proved several times too hard to balance and we know it's true. 20 men size has been decided because it allows to tune fights on 5 healers rather than "5-7".
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:32 pm

additionally with 20, you can be fairly sure every class can/will be represented which was not possible in 10man

means you can design mechanics with all classes in mind, kinda like horridon and having to dispell every kind of debuff
you are screwed if you didnt have a monk or a druid on horridon
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:35 pm

Going from 10 to 20 man mode is a lot more logical then going from 10 to 25. One of the problems I saw as a raid leader in Karazhan after we cleared the instance with two groups is that we did not have enough people for 25 man raiding.

10/25 man modes for every single raid has been a fucking failure ever since Blizzard introduced them in Wrath in order to be lazy and not designing specific 10 man raids.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:39 pm

That wasn't about laziness. That was because if they designed separate 10 and 25 man content, then the smaller guilds would have to either find 25 man groups or miss out on most of it.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:43 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:That wasn't about laziness. That was because if they designed separate 10 and 25 man content, then the smaller guilds would have to either find 25 man groups or miss out on most of it.


Or they would have to, God forbid, form a 25 man raid group themselves.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:47 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:That wasn't about laziness. That was because if they designed separate 10 and 25 man content, then the smaller guilds would have to either find 25 man groups or miss out on most of it.


Or they would have to, God forbid, form a 25 man raid group themselves.


What? Effort to access the thighest content available? Preposterous! What's next? have us *clear* Normal first like the common peon?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:51 pm

Amirya wrote:On the one hand, Garrosh? Yeah, I agree w/ Shoju.

On the other, it speaks a lot about the pandarens' belief in calm and not letting violence be the answer. Probably from all those generations of dealing with the sha, but still.

Thrall was all for insta-kill, and Varian was portrayed as heading for the same way, until Taran spoke up.


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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:53 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:That wasn't about laziness. That was because if they designed separate 10 and 25 man content, then the smaller guilds would have to either find 25 man groups or miss out on most of it.


Or they would have to, God forbid, form a 25 man raid group themselves.


I suspect that what this is going to allow Blizz to do is to design all encounters around 20-man, and then allow for scaling up and down.

Of course, I imagine there are quite a few irate Asians that won't have 2 lockouts to farm for loot anymore...
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:01 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:That wasn't about laziness. That was because if they designed separate 10 and 25 man content, then the smaller guilds would have to either find 25 man groups or miss out on most of it.


Or they would have to, God forbid, form a 25 man raid group themselves.

If it was that easy for them, they'd have done it during BC. Instead, by the time WotLK came around there were a bunch of guilds that were only able to do Karazhan and Zul Aman. So Blizzard changed things so they weren't left out. It also led to a lot more raid groups from then onward, because - surprise surprise - a 10 man group is easier to form and keep going.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:18 pm

If it was that easy for them, they'd have done it during BC. Instead, by the time WotLK came around there were a bunch of guilds that were only able to do Karazhan and Zul Aman. So Blizzard changed things so they weren't left out. It also led to a lot more raid groups from then onward, because - surprise surprise - a 10 man group is easier to form and keep going.


The problem of moving from 10 man raiding to 25 is that it's not natural as going from 10 man to 20 man raiding. Imagine you are a raid leader in a Karazhan guild trying to move to 25 man, you DO have 25 people if you are clearing Kara with two groups but what you lack is 25 fully active people: Some people are semi active, always been always will be in every guild.

Also there are many, many bad players. Bad NOT Casual. Also there are many new players that join WOW, even now, every day.

Why should bad players be able to do all the content and not have to actually become better skilled as the situation was in BC? There is no incentive to become better.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Flex » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:27 pm

Hey look.

This thread again.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:10 pm

Jeesh. I'm not going to say what I think about 10vs25, only to restate the important facts:

20 fixed will make for a better game going forward. It will put severe pressure on 10 man guilds and suck for those that like to raid with a small group.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:16 pm

Paxen wrote:Jeesh. I'm not going to say what I think about 10vs25, only to restate the important facts:

20 fixed will make for a better game going forward. It will put severe pressure on 10 man guilds and suck for those that like to raid with a small group.

but...
only Mythical mode will be a set 20 man
so really if you truly want to stick with your 10man, go for it

if you want to raid mythic, and have a 10 man team, well i guess find another 10 man team?
not a perfect solution but its what has to happen if you want to still raid at that level

i personally am looking forward to the change, as we will no longer have to sit people because we are a 10 man guild that is made up of 2 previous 10 man guilds that both had attendence issues. we now have a fairly stable raiding roster of about 14 people
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:46 pm

Pie in the sky dreaming: fixed 20m mythic that you can downgrade to heroic (flex) to 1) finish the clear and 2) bring in your bench for gear.

As far as I've heard so far, there is no difficulty toggling, which means if you're working on Mythic progression, "that's what you're doing." So if you want to clear the farm content in heroic, you have to start over from the beginning?

Has a blue addressed this? I don't imagine I'm the only one that sees this as a huge design issue.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Morr » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:21 pm

bldavis wrote:i personally am looking forward to the change, as we will no longer have to sit people because we are a 10 man guild that is made up of 2 previous 10 man guilds that both had attendence issues. we now have a fairly stable raiding roster of about 14 people


You will end up with 17-19 people and finally start clearing with that. That's what we've done most of Pandaria, just only with 8-9 people instead.

This crap have probably killed our guild. We only have IRL friends in the guild and are super tight and very casual, though got some very skilled players. It's sad.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:25 pm

bldavis wrote:only Mythical mode will be a set 20 man
so really if you truly want to stick with your 10man, go for it


It doesn't affect *me* - I only raid flex, if that. It will suck for people who are currently raiding 10 man heroic, as that difficulty disappears. It's possible to overcome it by recruiting or guild merger. But those who raid 10 because they prefer a smaller, more tight-knit group or because they don't want to deal with the hazzle of organizing a big group - they're out of luck. I sympathize with them because I prefer 10 man raids myself, even though it doesn't affect me.

Now, how many 10 hc raiders are there? I dunno. But I've often heard that there are significantly more 10 man raiders than 25 man, and my experiences agrees with that. Maybe as much as a majority of the target audience for Mythic raids are going to be severly impacted by this.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:45 pm

Morr wrote:
bldavis wrote:i personally am looking forward to the change, as we will no longer have to sit people because we are a 10 man guild that is made up of 2 previous 10 man guilds that both had attendence issues. we now have a fairly stable raiding roster of about 14 people


You will end up with 17-19 people and finally start clearing with that. That's what we've done most of Pandaria, just only with 8-9 people instead.

This crap have probably killed our guild. We only have IRL friends in the guild and are super tight and very casual, though got some very skilled players. It's sad.

if you are currently not a heroic guild, it wont matter...
normal and heroic in WoD will be flex size

and how will we end up with 17-19 and finally start clearing? what is the basis of that?
given we currently raid normal and flex, thus normal and heroic in WoD, and have little to no want for actual heroic/mythical modes, why would we not just stay with what we have and have our raid roster go up and down as people are/are not available week by week


if we do deside to go after mythical kills, yes we will have to recruit and set up a full 20 man roster, but for now, no big deal just sticking with what we have
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:53 pm

I think some people on this forum (and on the interwebs) automatically assume that every guild desires to do Heroic/Mythic difficulty.

I give you a hint, not everyone cares about the "very hard" mode, some people are fine with just clearing the game.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby culhag » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:28 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:As far as I've heard so far, there is no difficulty toggling, which means if you're working on Mythic progression, "that's what you're doing." So if you want to clear the farm content in heroic, you have to start over from the beginning?

In the Raids panel, they said they're thinking about implementing something to allow you to skip the wings you've already cleared once, to replicate the wings split we have with current LFR and Flex. That way we wouldn't have to clear everything from the start just to kill the last few bosses.
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