Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:55 am

Apparently most of the WoW players don't really "play for fun". I also don't care for min-maxing as lately I've been super casual.... but when I was doing progression raiding, I always felt I needed to push my gear to the limits I could acquire, to not let down my guild.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:10 pm

Paxen wrote:
Worldie wrote:There's no "alternate path" in a MMO. There's only "have always the best you can get / buy"


That's because every time somebody introduces a true alternate path the 1337 people cry over welfare epics.

(For me I couldn't care less, I don't play MMOs for gear, so it's a mostly theoretical discussion. Mostly.)


Not only they cry over welfare epics, but that they also "need" to get those very same welfare epics!
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Dion » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:37 pm

Worldie wrote: I liked the "We won't add a valor cap, but we cap how many you can get per week anyway"..... wut they really think that most of the population won't try to push for the 4900 per week asap?
They should have learned by now that people can't control themselves and prefer to overburn and "be done asap" rather than "play for fun"


Most of the population won't push for 4900. Most of the population will not overburn themselves. This is said by blue poster and this is similiar issue as was in MoP raidfinder. Issue was then and is also now loud minority crying.

Worldie wrote:The problem is, it is not "alternate".
We all know that for any guild progressing it's going to become mandatory very fast to get all the gear to max upgrade.


Progressing in HFC? Patch has been pretty long time out. Instead of nerfs we get power increase over time.

Worldie wrote:You know it's going to happen, it has already happened in MoP, it has happened everytime Blizzard introduced something similar.


Have you seen perhaps loud outcry over too much content in WoD? As for raider this expansion has LFR, normal, heroic and mythic difficult to run! Oh those metric tons of posts that complain that there is too much content for raiders.

Worldie wrote:There's no "alternate path" in a MMO. There's only "have always the best you can get / buy"


That's true. For world firsts. And top guilds are complaining that there is fewer and fewer recruits and competitive raiding has been on decline for long time.

Worldie wrote:Apparently most of the WoW players don't really "play for fun". I also don't care for min-maxing as lately I've been super casual.... but when I was doing progression raiding, I always felt I needed to push my gear to the limits I could acquire, to not let down my guild.


You are not multiple persons. You are you and only you. You make it sound that every progressive raider is like you and you are like every progressive raider. I remember insane amount of money you burned to transfers and faction changes. Not all will do that.

Not let down your guild? You mean those guild that disbanded? If progression Worldie causes guild disbands, does casual Worldie cause garrisons?.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:44 am

I kind of disagree, the large majority of the players I've met along the last 6-7 WoW years always wanted to push themselves to whatever cap is proposed, whenever they were casuals or hardcore alike.
If the outburn-boredom was only affecting a "small minority" of the players, I'd not see why the extreme sub decline that has hit WoW in the last year.
I also still have to hear a single player who is happy of the Valor and item upgrade return.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Kai » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:31 am

the item upgrade is just a masked nerf to HFC. terribly packaged though. and this 'no valor cap crap' ... my guild raids 7 hours per week. because we don't want to play as much as we used to in the past. and now to make use of that content nerf - which surely is aimed at people like us - we'd have to grind random crap for hours, if we want to get the most of it? I just don't get who's coming up with this @#$%^@#$. just add a ticking up % zone buff and be done with it. don't force people to do 5 men content they've done a ton of times already.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:22 am

I can see why they don't want to use the % nerf though. If you remind in the past, once the % nerf got up to 15-20%, it literally removed certain mechanics from some fights that went from "do mechanic or die" to "just ignore and heal up" as if it was LFR.
Item upgrades, while being a horrible design as it forces you to farm stuff you already farmed to nausea, increase your DPS/HPS but won't make mechanics ignorable, as they dont flat out give you 20% more hp or 20% reduced damage (which is very significative on high numbers for 1-shot abilities).
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Kai » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:29 am

perfectly doable to implement that in a sensible way. cap valor at 1k. make one upgrade 250 points. 50 valor per HFC boss kill. something like that. then raiders have to do a little bit outside of raiding, but no one is gonna complain about 2 dungeons per week.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:56 am

I think the most aggravating part is the mount, or rather the quest around the mount that is only for heroic/mythic raiders -- in the sense that it gives you a quest with backstory for Legion, as a sort of prologue.

I don't care about the mount, but this expansion has truly lacked story and Legion prologue is given to people that probably don't care about the story since their focus is the hardest raids?

Blizz has acknowledged that their playerbase, in average, has gotten older, with all the adult responsibilities that that implies, and yet they have failed to adapt to that; moreover they're, in fact, doubling down on raids, on getting people to raid -- and the worst part is that if you're not in a heroic/mythic raid already by this point... g'luck with that then!

Incentivizing raiding like that doesn't actually alleviate the hurdles someone has when it comes to getting a raid team.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby halabar » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:54 pm

Kai wrote:the item upgrade is just a masked nerf to HFC. terribly packaged though. and this 'no valor cap crap' ... my guild raids 7 hours per week. because we don't want to play as much as we used to in the past. and now to make use of that content nerf - which surely is aimed at people like us - we'd have to grind random crap for hours, if we want to get the most of it? I just don't get who's coming up with this @#$%^@#$. just add a ticking up % zone buff and be done with it. don't force people to do 5 men content they've done a ton of times already.


Yes, it's a veiled nerf.. but.. it also keeps better players running LFR and random dungeons and such, lifting the overall experiences in those places. It also scratches the itch for those saying "nothing to do outside of raid".

Do I wish they did it a different way? Yes.

But it is more than a simple nerf.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Dion » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:13 am

Worldie wrote: I kind of disagree, the large majority of the players I've met along the last 6-7 WoW years always wanted to push themselves to whatever cap is proposed, whenever they were casuals or hardcore alike.


My experience is otherwise. If you think about, how big percentage from, say LRF group is going to push for that 4900? Of normal/heroic pug group? Those guilds that keep advertising trade chat? I doubt that most of them will. This is also stated by blue post.

Worldie wrote: Most of the WoW players don't really "play for fun".

Worldie wrote: Large majority of the players I've met.


You haven't met all of wow players yet you are fine speaking their behalf. And not only limiting to Eu and USA, you are speaking on behalf of Asian WoW community for example. You are making statements of WoW players based on your experience, yet your experiences don't reflect majority of WoW community.

Worldie wrote:If the outburn-boredom was only affecting a "small minority" of the players, I'd not see why the extreme sub decline that has hit WoW in the last year.


I think that people aren't quiting because there is too much raiding, they are quiting because there isn't enough content other than raiding.

Worldie wrote: I also still have to hear a single player who is happy of the Valor and item upgrade return.


Me. Now you have one.
It is content and it is relevant content as it makes your character stronger. It is welcome addition as there is very little 5-man dungeon content in WoD.

kai wrote: which surely is aimed at people like us


No. It is for people that have been asking incentive to run/more 5-man content. It affects you, but you aren't the target audience.
Klaudandus" wrote:people that probably don't care about the story since their focus is the hardest raids.


So, it's like that when you watch tv evening, you can't read comics that said evening? In other words, if Worldie commited in serious mythic raiding, he would lose intrest in lore in one swift stroke?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:00 am

I said probably don't care -- I'm sure there's some mythic players that do care about lore and love to read about the little lore tidbits and story of the game, but that's just a tiny slice of an already small slice.

It's just that you're more likely to find someone that is interested in the story within the game, particularly the prologue to Legion among people that are not mythic raiders than those that are mythic raiders.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Dion » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:50 am

Klaudandus wrote:It's just that you're more likely to find someone that is interested in the story within the game, particularly the prologue to Legion among people that are not mythic raiders than those that are mythic raiders.


This is based on what? I think this whole "mythic raiders aren't intrested in lore" is generaly stupid thing to say. I really don't think that persons intrest or lack of intrest is defined simply by what difficult he or she happens to be raiding. Or would you state that EU players are generaly less intrested in lore as they have more mythic raiding guilds than, say USA, in Top 20 in progression race?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Nooska » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:28 am

Jut swant to weigh in on the "if you aren't in a hc/mythic group already)

On my server, recruitment has been very standstill, we started doing mythic in HM, then moved on to BRF when it came out (or maybe a short overlap, I don't quite remember, its ages ago now). We have got Heroic HFC on farm (~80%) with our group of ~14 people. Next up to do anything that doesn't cause the core group to disappear before Legion: Mythic.
Okay, now we need to recruit more (the biggest challenge with mythic isn't the difficulty, our core goup are perfoming just a stehy should) - the main difficulty is getting a group large enough to do Mythic. Recruitment went on to "don't need gear or experience" (since we can clear normal very easily, gearing up is quick (provided RNG isn't a total bitch), and we can even clear the first 6 heroic ones relativgely easily with the undergeared people. As they get geared we can get them gear from heroic final 7 - it does take a few weeks though, as the rest of us still can use some few upgrades from heroic, so its being done regardless of whether the new guys/gals can be in on it).

So yeah, if you are experienced / have gear (which sortof requires experience), its not that hard to get in to the guilds, as longa s you don't need to be in the top guild on the server (I know the other guilds are now lowering the bar as well, because we sort-of forced it)

Also, we are 1/13 Mythic, World rank 4340, EU rank 1931, EU english 818 - so yes, progression is still alive in HFC.

I would also liek to see it as a zone buff instead of valor upgrade though- because I don't have a lot of time to play outside of raids (and even for raids I have to be absent quite a bit), adding upgrades would be awesome if I had the time to hjust grind it (as it would help me compared to those that are just there for the raids, but mroe often than me), but in general, a zone buff would be preferable imo - just roll it out slower than previously, and maybe buff the "instakill" things while you do it - so "'Hellfires Burning' Zone buff increased to 10%" and "Huge hitting ability 1-10 has had its damage increased by 11%" (zone buff cancelled out for the kills, and damage reduced for everything else)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby halabar » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:18 pm

So.. "before" Sept 2016 release date.

HFC will be a longer tier than SoO...
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:27 pm

halabar wrote:So.. "before" Sept 2016 release date.

HFC will be a longer tier than SoO...


And the carrot is really terrible... pre-order your digital copy and get the demon hunter a week earlier.

What if you want to buy the physical copy?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Passionario » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:14 am

halabar wrote:So.. "before" Sept 2016 release date.

HFC will be a longer tier than SoO...

Legacy of the Void had an announced last possible release date of March 26th, 2016, and it's coming out in 5 days.

If I recall correctly, Wings of Liberty was also released about 4-5 months in advance of its "on or before" date.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Kai » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:49 am

fu blizzard. quite sad that i'll very likely still give them my money. but why the fuck can't they time their content patches better? staggered raids for the first months of WoD again. less than 500 mythic highmaul clears when BRF was released. and then they let us sit a year in HFC again ... every time the same shit, so I guess they do it on purpose. but why?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:20 am

Because releasing an expansion for a HUGE game like WoW that is not broken and has no gamebreaking bugs or fucked up balance is not such a easy task as people expect.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Dion » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:40 am

Klaudandus wrote:
halabar wrote:So.. "before" Sept 2016 release date.

HFC will be a longer tier than SoO...


And the carrot is really terrible... pre-order your digital copy and get the demon hunter a week earlier.

What if you want to buy the physical copy?


Prepurchase also gives level 100 boost according to Mmo-Champ. Now, could you refresh my memory, what carrots WoD prepurchasing had?

My guess is April, probably late April.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:13 am

WoD had same carrot, free 90 boost.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Dion » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:33 am

Worldie wrote:Because releasing an expansion for a HUGE game like WoW that is not broken and has no gamebreaking bugs or fucked up balance is not such a easy task as people expect.

Many people are dissapointed because they had hopes up that expansion would come out fast. And some of the "bought 36 tokens, got all covered!"-people have started to think how many Annual Passes they have bought. I think Blizzard has heard feedback and is probably making sure that there is more content in Legion and this is why it also takes time to release the game. This is optimistic scenario, I admit. We'll see what they share in Blizzcon as I expect other hand alot from them.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Kai » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:55 am

the problem is this:

Blizzard has managed to spread four major expansions over those nine years. There have also been, as Street points out, smaller patches , but shifting to a yearly release schedule for expansions would be a considerable step up. It's a move that could change the way new and returning players view WoW, according to Street.

"We find that expansions are what bring players back to World of Warcraft," Street tells Digital Spy . "Really good patches will keep them, but they aren't as good at bringing players back to the game.


iif you google for something along the lines of wow+expansions+release you'll find lots of similar statements over the last years from different people in the blizzard management chain. cutting a raid tier is fair enough IF the expansions really come out faster. but this is just a joke. over a year of the same patch. designing another raid tier with 4-5 bosses can't be THAT much effort.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:52 am

and the worst part is that WoD content was found wanting -- there was really no content in WoD whereas MoP was rife with content. Heck, I felt I got more out of 5.1 and 5.2 alone than I did out of all of WoD.

THAT SAID, the September date is the latest you expect it to hit the shelves, but I'll bet a dollar that it'll hit before we have a year of HFC.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:32 am

Worldie wrote:Because releasing an expansion for a HUGE game like WoW that is not broken and has no gamebreaking bugs or fucked up balance is not such a easy task as people expect.

Would it kill them to slow down the rate of patches within an expansion, then, so there's not 9 months of final raid tier every time?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:17 am

Probably not, but they as usual exagerated with "patch pace" and once again were not in time with the new expansion.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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