Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:25 am

If you use it correctly it's one extra GCD every ~20 seconds to keep up two of the buffs:

Insight heals for 1% of max hp every 2 seconds
Righteousness gives 10% haste
Truth gives 15% attack power
Justice gives 20% movement speed (ret only)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:09 pm

Newsom wrote:If you use it correctly it's one extra GCD every ~20 seconds to keep up two of the buffs:

Insight heals for 1% of max hp every 2 seconds
Righteousness gives 10% haste
Truth gives 15% attack power
Justice gives 20% movement speed (ret only)


And the 1% heal per 2 seconds scales off resolve, can multistrike and can proc shining protector IIRC.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Nooska » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:40 pm

So prot uses Insight and Righteousness
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:53 pm

Nooska wrote:So prot uses Insight and Righteousness


Pretty much yeah. You usually don't wipe due to the tank doing too little damage, but if you do you could add in Truth.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:02 am

Newsom wrote:If you use it correctly it's one extra GCD every ~20 seconds to keep up two of the buffs


I don't think that's correct. You need to judge each of the seals once every 20 seconds, so you need to change to each of the seals once every 20 seconds. That means 2 or 3 GCDs, assuming you want to include Truth or not.

Note that some heal effects are based on attack power, so Truth does improve our survivability as well, though it's hard to say if being out of SoI longer reduces it by more.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:28 pm

Nooska wrote:So prot uses Insight and Righteousness

Not true at all.
If its a dps increase you use all 3.
thats like saying to not use consecrate cause it doesnt do anything defensive for us.
Only reason not to use Truth is if its a holypower loss, not cause to lazy, which btw everyone has tried saying its not annoying to play with due to castseqenze macro, which is still a bullshit talent, and dont forget you arnt even getting the selfheals from insight half the time with that talent, and insigt heals for more than the talent does, aka to keep the hot up, you are sacrificing half of your passive selfhealing. The best thing about that talent now is almost its haste component.

Thels wrote:I don't think that's correct. You need to judge each of the seals once every 20 seconds, so you need to change to each of the seals once every 20 seconds. That means 2 or 3 GCDs, assuming you want to include Truth or not.

Technicallity, but buffs can extend the normal 20sec duration if reapplied early, stacking similar to some dots currently do for some classes, I think Emp seals reaches 26sec or so.

Seraphim giving 1500 of ALL secondary stats is a huge deal, and will most likely be an absolute winner on every single tankswap fight (where the 2nd tank doesnt take cleave dmg etc) where as Holy shield should win on every upkeep fight, not to mention the dmg components from both of those talents.
Seraphim works as a mini CD cause it increases haste, critt, mastery(ap), multistrike, versitility and bonus armor(also AP) by 1500 with a 50% uptime, both a defensive and offencive cooldown.
Holy Shield especially coupled with +block things like t17 2piece gets incredibly strong, couple that with bosses that give you dots that can all procc holy shield (the dmg part) it ends up being your highest dmg source.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:46 pm

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 3906767872
Tanks are still massively overperforming, and we're planning some significant nerfs.

FUCK.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:56 pm

Im gonna have to agree with celestalon a bit here, altho I dont think the solution is that simple.
Cause much of what we are seeing now is tanks that use their active mitigation properly, survive more than fine.
And in some cases, classes even got more CDs to use more regularly.
With good play, tanks have very high survivability, and thats what they are aiming to tune down a little.

SoO was (imo) a pretty big failure from a tank PoV in terms of survivability, cause there wasnt much, sure you could in a few cases get trucked in a sec, but mostly you had the cloak there to save you anyway.
With the new "slower" lose health/gain health approach they are going for in WoD, it makes tanks incredibly easy to keep alive due to tanks dying slowly.
They dont wanna get back to tanks getting one or two shot again, meaning that tanks "sohuld" slowly go down, but chaining CDs and Active mitigation, good tanks get topped easily again and then taking ages to die again.

I don't believe there is a "quick fix" and it just really needs to be slowly tuned better.
Main problem (imo) is the focus on so many cooldowns outside of active mitigation, especially the smaller short CDs with short CDs (looking at DKs) and honestly some AMs are just a bit to strong as well.
But I would rather see a situation where you mainly have one big CD and then Active mitigation (and maybe smaller CDs to increase AM) than having 5 cooldowns + AM.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:05 pm

He also said that there would be a re-tune of content, as it is all hitting harder than Lei Shen (presumably heroic).

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 6400822272 https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 4145211393

and that all tanks would be re-tuned

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 6273891328
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:11 am

Thels wrote:I don't think that's correct. You need to judge each of the seals once every 20 seconds, so you need to change to each of the seals once every 20 seconds. That means 2 or 3 GCDs, assuming you want to include Truth or not.

Treck wrote:Technicallity, but buffs can extend the normal 20sec duration if reapplied early, stacking similar to some dots currently do for some classes, I think Emp seals reaches 26sec or so.

Seraphim giving 1500 of ALL secondary stats is a huge deal, and will most likely be an absolute winner on every single tankswap fight (where the 2nd tank doesnt take cleave dmg etc) where as Holy shield should win on every upkeep fight, not to mention the dmg components from both of those talents.
Seraphim works as a mini CD cause it increases haste, critt, mastery(ap), multistrike, versitility and bonus armor(also AP) by 1500 with a 50% uptime, both a defensive and offencive cooldown.
Holy Shield especially coupled with +block things like t17 2piece gets incredibly strong, couple that with bosses that give you dots that can all procc holy shield (the dmg part) it ends up being your highest dmg source.

Hmm, so 26 seconds rather than 20, that sounds like the 30% that Theck was referring to. I still wonder, which of the 2 applies:

- When refreshing, new duration is always 26 seconds.
- When refreshing, the remaining duration is increased by 20 seconds, up to 26 seconds.

And, yeah, I can very well see something like:
- Empowered Seals - Best DPS option
- Seraphim - Best Survival option for tank switching
- Holy Shield - Best Survival option for constant tanking
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:05 am

Thels wrote:Hmm, so 26 seconds rather than 20, that sounds like the 30% that Theck was referring to. I still wonder, which of the 2 applies:

- When refreshing, new duration is always 26 seconds.
- When refreshing, the remaining duration is increased by 20 seconds, up to 26 seconds.

As per my response in the other thread: HoTs and DoTs get a built-in pandemic, which means that if it has $duration remaining when you refresh it, the new duration is min($duration+$max_duration, 1.3*$max_duration).

In this case, if you refresh it with 6+ seconds remaining, the new duration should be 26s. If you refresh it with e.g. 4s remaining, it'll be 24s.

Also note that the 10% haste buff from SoR is essentially "free." In 20s, you get 20/1.5=13.3 GCDs to play with. If you have 10% haste, that becomes 20/1.5*1.1=14.67 GCDs. So the SoR buff from Empowered Seals gives you the extra GCD required to maintain it automatically (though obviously it still may displace a filler if you have no empties to spare).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:06 pm

Isn't the buff from EmpS attack speed, not haste?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:27 pm

Buff is actually haste, aka decreasing GCD, so it is basically "free" 10% haste, due to your rotation changing however I'm mainly interested about its Holypower increase if it just pushes other things out of the way or not (thinking with both using 2 and 3 seals)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:30 pm

Fetzie wrote:Isn't the buff from EmpS attack speed, not haste?

It was attack speed, it was changed to haste in one of the recent beta patches.

Treck wrote:Buff is actually haste, aka decreasing GCD, so it is basically "free" 10% haste, due to your rotation changing however I'm mainly interested about its Holypower increase if it just pushes other things out of the way or not (thinking with both using 2 and 3 seals)

With 2-3 seals it should still be a Holy Power increase, since you should be able to recast seals during empties/fillers. It may not be a DPS increase though. Schroom did some preliminary sims in the AT&C Beta Simcraft thread, though obviously we'll need to re-run and refine them based on the new tuning changes (also SimC bugfixes).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:46 pm

Yeah, Im assuming its going to be a dps increase to use all 3 seals, or maybe use the two offencive to be a dps increase, idk what the designer of that talent thought.
As for ret, if its a dps increase they will use it cause, well its a dps increase.
For prot, if it doesnt hinder the holypower gain, obviously we would use all if it comes out as a holypower increase.
But even with the 10% extra haste, 3 GCDs within 26sec is quite a bit of damage as well lost out, and maybe they might just need to increase its strength to make it interesting for tanks to use all 3.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:09 pm

I wish they would just redesign it, to be honest. I think seal twisting is garbage, so the whole talent feels like garbage to me.

And the problem is that it's positioned in a tier with a passive option, which means it will probably be tuned to be slightly better than the passive option (otherwise, why would you bother taking it?). So it'll end up being the preferred choice for the slight performance increase, even if we hate seal twisting.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:54 am

Treck wrote:3 GCDs within 26sec


Are you sure we're getting away with 26 seconds?

Rotation: SoR > JoR > SoT > JoT > SoI > JoI > repeat.
This requires us to cycle the rotation every 20 seconds on average. If one cycle takes us 25 seconds for various reasons, we only have 21 seconds for the next cycle.

Per 12 Judgments, we spend 12 GCDs on Seals.

At low haste values (I honestly have no idea of our haste values at, say, HC Dungeon gear level), we can't get more than 1 Judgment off per Seal. Once we start to get into higher haste levels, perhaps we can try squeezing in a 2nd Judgment. Let's check a couple of rotations...



Rotation: SoR > JoR > JoR > SoT > JoT > SoI > JoI > SoR > JoR > SoT > JoT > JoT > SoI > JoI > SoR > JoR > SoT > JoT > SoI > JoI > JoI > repeat.
A 2nd Judgment every 4th seal would push the timer up to 26 seconds for that Judgment. We then have to wait 3 Judgments to refresh it, wait another 4 Judgments to refresh it again, and finally wait another 4 Judgments to refresh it twice back to 26 seconds.

Covering the first part with 3 Judgments shouldn't be an issue (we need to do that anyhow in the basic rotation), so we should reliably push 6 seconds over towards the other 2 gaps, which means we practically have 23 seconds for each gap of 4 Judgments. A 4 Judgment gap takes 18 GCDs.

23 seconds gives us 15.33 GCDs at 0% haste. We need 18% haste (from all sources) as the bare minimum for this rotation.

Per 12 Judgments, we spend 9 GCDs on Seals. Compared to the 1 Judgment per Seal rotation, this frees up 1 GCD every 4 Judgments (or 18 GCDs).



Rotation: SoR > JoR > JoR > SoT > JoT > SoI > JoI > JoI > SoR > JoR > SoT > JoT > JoT > SoI > JoI > repeat.
Naturally, a 2nd Judgment every 3 Seals wouldn't work out, as we'd keep extending the same Judgment. But what about a 2nd Judgment every 2 Seals? After pushing it up to 26 seconds, we have to wait 4 Judgments to refresh it, then wait another 4 Judgments to refresh it again. This actually has the same requirements as above, but requires a lot less GCDs for changing seals. Again, we'd need 18% haste (from all sources) as the bare minimum for this rotation.

Per 12 Judgments, we spend 8 GCDs on Seals. Compared to the 1 Judgment per Seal rotation, this frees up 1 GCD every 3 Judgments (or 13-14 GCDs). Compared to the 2 Judgments every 4 Seals, this frees up 1 GCD every 12 Judgments (or 54 GCDs).



Rotation: SoR > JoR > JoR > SoT > JoT > JoT > SoI > JoI > JoI > repeat.
Naturally, we have to check if 2 Judgments every Seal can be a thing. For that, we have 26 seconds to cover a gap of 5 Judgments. However, instead of bumping this Seal to our disadvantage, we could pick when to pop our seal, and if we use it at X1 or X2, it means it'll only be 22 GCDs away until the next Judgment, rather than 23 GCDs.

CS-J-X1-CS-X2-J-CS-X3-X4-

23 seconds gives us 15.33 GCDs at 0% haste. We need 44% haste (from all sources) as the bare minimum for this rotation.

Per 12 Judgments, we spend 6 GCDs on Seals. Compared to the 1 Judgment per Seal rotation, this frees up 1 GCD every 2 Judgments (or 9 GCDs). Compared to the 2 Judgments every 2 Seals, this frees up 1 GCD every 6 Judgments (or 27 GCDs).



18% is not a whole lot, if you consider that the talent itself gives us 10% already. Does the raid buff Haste apply to us? Then we only need to cover 3%. Otherwise, we'll have to cover 8%. Doesn't sound like too much of a stretch, if we focus on it. Macroing SoR>J>SoT>J>SoI>J will cause you to lose a GCD every 13-14 GCDs, which might be rather punishing.



44% is quite a lot, especially if you also want to build a bit of an error margin. It would require very close to 50% haste, and you have to make sure that you do everything correctly. As I described above, you NEED to refresh the Seal in X1 or X2. X3 or X4 would require exactly 50% haste to pull off, with zero delay in the rotation.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:07 am

Looking at the stats on the gear, you should be able to get at least 20% haste from gear before even setting foot in a raid. Using two ring enchants, the necklace enchant and the cloak enchant gives you about 2% haste on their own.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Yelena » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:28 am

theckhd wrote:I wish they would just redesign it, to be honest. I think seal twisting is garbage, so the whole talent feels like garbage to me.

And the problem is that it's positioned in a tier with a passive option, which means it will probably be tuned to be slightly better than the passive option (otherwise, why would you bother taking it?). So it'll end up being the preferred choice for the slight performance increase, even if we hate seal twisting.

It doesn't help that, mechanically, the entire Seal system itself is garbage (and has been for years). The talent would be better accepted by Protection and Retribution alike if the underlying mechanical issues were addressed. Unfortunately Paladins have been expressing feedback and concerns regarding Empowered Seals, until they're blue in the face, and development has been unwilling to budge on their design the entire time. Sure, they can throw numbers at the problem until it's numerically viable or even slightly superior, that won't change the fact that the talent feels like garbage.

Sadly this seems to have been a recurring theme for many specs throughout this beta.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Dion » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:58 am

theckhd wrote:And the problem is that it's positioned in a tier with a passive option, which means it will probably be tuned to be slightly better than the passive option (otherwise, why would you bother taking it?). So it'll end up being the preferred choice for the slight performance increase, even if we hate seal twisting.

Some questions to you: How big is the difference? How well you need to perform rotation it to out-perform other two? On what encounter it is better than other two and how wide margin?

theckhd wrote:I wish they would just redesign it, to be honest. I think seal twisting is garbage, so the whole talent feels like garbage to me.

You need to tread very carefully on that road as your oppinions turn in to facts for community faster than light traverls in space. Price you pay as figurehead of theorycrafting community.
Yelena wrote:
It doesn't help that, mechanically, the entire Seal system itself is garbage (and has been for years). The talent would be better accepted by Protection and Retribution alike if the underlying mechanical issues were addressed. Unfortunately Paladins have been expressing feedback and concerns regarding Empowered Seals, until they're blue in the face, and development has been unwilling to budge on their design the entire time. Sure, they can throw numbers at the problem until it's numerically viable or even slightly superior, that won't change the fact that the talent feels like garbage.

Sadly this seems to have been a recurring theme for many specs throughout this beta.


As they have stated with Blessings, alternative is not to to merge or refine, it’s cut and remove. And I think it's same with Seals. Clearing the clutter from spellbook and streamline is word of day. That being said, I don’t find seals bad mechanic or think Empowered Seals could never ever work. It might not be my cup of tea if I can’t make it work but then again, there are alternatives.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:34 am

Dion wrote:
theckhd wrote:I wish they would just redesign it, to be honest. I think seal twisting is garbage, so the whole talent feels like garbage to me.

You need to tread very carefully on that road as your oppinions turn in to facts for community faster than light traverls in space. Price you pay as figurehead of theorycrafting community.


I think many people already have a bias against Seal Twisting even without Theck announcing it from the top Mt. Sinai.

I'm pretty sure some liked it either because they're crazy performance or genuinely liked it in BC.

Yeah, I did seal/judge twisting, yeah I used macros... we were successful in BC not because of seal/judge twisting but in spite of it, and we tolerated it because there was nothing else. Although for some, the nostalgia factor might be huge.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:21 am

I played Warlock in Classic and TBC, I have no nostalgia factor with seal twisting. I think it is a waste of keybinds (with EmpS we gained more key-bound abilities than we lost in the great ability cull of 2014).

They remove Avenging Wrath, which is probably the most iconic paladin ability in the game, and give us three maintenance buffs that mean dropping filler abilities. You can say goodbye to ever using Consecrate, Hammer of Wrath and Holy Wrath because now you have to spend about 20-30% of your GCDs (depending on haste value) on buffing a seal. Every third GCD is a CS, every ~4th GCD is a J. So that leaves about enough time to cast an occasional AS. You free up some GCDs if you only use two seals though, which I think I would probably do. I'd probably use Righteousness and Insight normally, and then if I needed to do more damage then swap Insight for Truth.

Also: in TBC when seal twisting was a thing, seals were off the GCD. Just saying.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:06 am

Fetzie wrote:Also: in TBC when seal twisting was a thing, seals were off the GCD. Just saying.


Yeah, Empowered Seals is nothing anywhere close to how Seals worked back in Vanilla/TBC.

EmpSeals is clearly the most complex rotation to optimize among the three L100 talents, for both Prot and Ret. Because of that, it's likely to end up as the best option for at least one, if not both specs.

Perhaps it's designed to switch between only 2 seals. Then you can run in the first seal, judge a few times so the buff is guaranteed to be 26 seconds, before switching to the second seal, judge that one a few times, and then switch back again. That requires only a single GCD every 20 or so seconds. Switching between 3+ seals makes things a whole lot messier.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Dion » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:46 am

Klaudandus wrote:I think many people already have a bias against Seal Twisting even without Theck announcing it from the top Mt. Sinai.

It might also reason why people offer very poor feedback on talent (redesign it!) instead of trying to contribute and make it work. For some of the posters Seal twisting seems to be Totaly Evil Mechanic that eats baby paladins.

Klaudandus wrote:Yeah, I did seal/judge twisting, yeah I used macros... we were successful in BC not because of seal/judge twisting but in spite of it, and we tolerated it because there was nothing else. Although for some, the nostalgia factor might be huge.

Who is this "we who toletated it"? Community of maintankadin? Paladin players of USA? Of Europe? Oceanic paladins? For whose behalf are you comfortable speaking? Have any insight how are paladins in Asia are feeling about talent and playstyle? I sure don't and thats why I don't try to speak their behalf. Don't like the talent and playstyle? Don't take it. For vast majority that aren't racing for world firsts it won't make or break the kill. And it's still on beta. Not on live, and even then on Wod pre-patch it can tried and made emergency hotfixes if needed.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Yelena » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:17 pm

Dion wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I think many people already have a bias against Seal Twisting even without Theck announcing it from the top Mt. Sinai.

It might also reason why people offer very poor feedback on talent (redesign it!) instead of trying to contribute and make it work. For some of the posters Seal twisting seems to be Totaly Evil Mechanic that eats baby paladins.

Among that "very poor feedback" has been a wealth of feedback which tries to make it work, offered several quality of life changes (beyond just taking Seals off the GCD), and a host of other insight.

It's on the designers, at this point, if they choose to act upon the feedback provided; it sure as hell isn't because there hasn't been any quality, in depth, feedback offered from some of the best players and minds in the various communities.

Thels wrote:EmpSeals is clearly the most complex rotation to optimize among the three L100 talents, for both Prot and Ret. Because of that, it's likely to end up as the best option for at least one, if not both specs.

It's entirely possible to add complexity to a rotation without making it feel like trash to execute.
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