Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:56 pm

ouch, looks like incoming nerfs =/
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby degre » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:28 am

Newsom wrote:They just moved a bunch of stuff from redundant passives to the actual spells to clean up the spellbook.

I was reading a few days ago that they have actually removed a bunch of passives that will not be moved anywhere else, just to clean up.

The idea is that if that ability doesn't offer you any choice, there is no point in cluttering the spellbook. On the other hand, they have confirmed that stuff that has vanished will be available to be gathered via datamining for use by theorycrafter.

Will have a look if I find the source.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:41 am

Yeah, but having those passive listed somewhere helps theorycrafting in verifying if X ability is properly effected by Y passive.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:55 am

Am I the only one who missed the latest change on setbonuses?
Datamined T17 items are:
(2) 50% block for 5 sec after casting Avengers shield.
(4) when you block you have a chance to get 50% block value (rppm)

2piece would be close to mandatory together with Holy shield, 90% chance to block 40% dmg, and with 4piece should (when it does procc) give you 60% block, on everything.
I already like holy shield atm on beta this is pretty insane.

Seraphim also seems pretty strong atm since they went from +% of your gearvalue, to static 1500 stats.

And Emp seals is still equally unattractive having to get three more keybinds.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:15 am

Treck wrote:And Emp seals is still equally unattractive having to get three more keybinds.


Get a /castsequence macro for your seals. Once you're used to it, it's actually not as tedious as you'd think.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby econ21 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:07 am

Newsom wrote:Get a /castsequence macro for your seals. Once you're used to it, it's actually not as tedious as you'd think.


Can you give an example of a castsequence macro and how it would work here? I've never used one before but it sounds intriguing.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:44 am

/castsequence Judgement, Seal 1, Judgement, Seal 2, Judgement, Seal 3

That's it really :P
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:19 am

No need to use Truth if you're tanking unless you're wiping to some DPS check. I use this on beta:
/castsequence seal of righteousness, seal of insight

Then I just change seal every 3 judgements to keep both buffs up.

For ret, just swap Insight with Truth and do the same.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:48 am

I'll stick with Holy Shield.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:41 pm

I don't really see why a Prot would even think about not taking Holy Shield tbh in its current form.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:08 am

Worldie wrote:I don't really see why a Prot would even think about not taking Holy Shield tbh in its current form.


Because on a 30 second alternating tank swap, the 5 holy power for Seraphim is a lot less punishing to save up in the last few seconds before you taunt and the buff it gives you is fucking amazeballs.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:52 am

But they promised us a lot less of those. Of course, Blizzard promises a lot of stuff...
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:59 am

Fetzie wrote:
Worldie wrote:I don't really see why a Prot would even think about not taking Holy Shield tbh in its current form.


Because on a 30 second alternating tank swap, the 5 holy power for Seraphim is a lot less punishing to save up in the last few seconds before you taunt and the buff it gives you is fucking amazeballs.

I'd still take the extra block and spell block over any sort of dps increase you can propose me. Maybe I'm too oldschool and dont care for my dps but rather for my survivability.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Ruldar » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:48 am

Someone explain the Empowered Seals talent to me. Do seals not have a GCD and I'm just forgetting? If they do and judgements do, I'm having a hard time imagining burning two or three extra GCDs every 20 seconds to refresh the seal buffs. Or are they simply powerful enough to be worth it?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:44 am

Afaik, they do still take up GCDs, but the buffs are supposed to make it worth it, if you use the seals in the correct fillers.

It does remind me a bit of the old days, where Judgment consumed your Seal.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:25 am

If you use it correctly it's one extra GCD every ~20 seconds to keep up two of the buffs:

Insight heals for 1% of max hp every 2 seconds
Righteousness gives 10% haste
Truth gives 15% attack power
Justice gives 20% movement speed (ret only)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:09 pm

Newsom wrote:If you use it correctly it's one extra GCD every ~20 seconds to keep up two of the buffs:

Insight heals for 1% of max hp every 2 seconds
Righteousness gives 10% haste
Truth gives 15% attack power
Justice gives 20% movement speed (ret only)


And the 1% heal per 2 seconds scales off resolve, can multistrike and can proc shining protector IIRC.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Nooska » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:40 pm

So prot uses Insight and Righteousness
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:53 pm

Nooska wrote:So prot uses Insight and Righteousness


Pretty much yeah. You usually don't wipe due to the tank doing too little damage, but if you do you could add in Truth.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:02 am

Newsom wrote:If you use it correctly it's one extra GCD every ~20 seconds to keep up two of the buffs


I don't think that's correct. You need to judge each of the seals once every 20 seconds, so you need to change to each of the seals once every 20 seconds. That means 2 or 3 GCDs, assuming you want to include Truth or not.

Note that some heal effects are based on attack power, so Truth does improve our survivability as well, though it's hard to say if being out of SoI longer reduces it by more.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:28 pm

Nooska wrote:So prot uses Insight and Righteousness

Not true at all.
If its a dps increase you use all 3.
thats like saying to not use consecrate cause it doesnt do anything defensive for us.
Only reason not to use Truth is if its a holypower loss, not cause to lazy, which btw everyone has tried saying its not annoying to play with due to castseqenze macro, which is still a bullshit talent, and dont forget you arnt even getting the selfheals from insight half the time with that talent, and insigt heals for more than the talent does, aka to keep the hot up, you are sacrificing half of your passive selfhealing. The best thing about that talent now is almost its haste component.

Thels wrote:I don't think that's correct. You need to judge each of the seals once every 20 seconds, so you need to change to each of the seals once every 20 seconds. That means 2 or 3 GCDs, assuming you want to include Truth or not.

Technicallity, but buffs can extend the normal 20sec duration if reapplied early, stacking similar to some dots currently do for some classes, I think Emp seals reaches 26sec or so.

Seraphim giving 1500 of ALL secondary stats is a huge deal, and will most likely be an absolute winner on every single tankswap fight (where the 2nd tank doesnt take cleave dmg etc) where as Holy shield should win on every upkeep fight, not to mention the dmg components from both of those talents.
Seraphim works as a mini CD cause it increases haste, critt, mastery(ap), multistrike, versitility and bonus armor(also AP) by 1500 with a 50% uptime, both a defensive and offencive cooldown.
Holy Shield especially coupled with +block things like t17 2piece gets incredibly strong, couple that with bosses that give you dots that can all procc holy shield (the dmg part) it ends up being your highest dmg source.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:46 pm

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 3906767872
Tanks are still massively overperforming, and we're planning some significant nerfs.

FUCK.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:56 pm

Im gonna have to agree with celestalon a bit here, altho I dont think the solution is that simple.
Cause much of what we are seeing now is tanks that use their active mitigation properly, survive more than fine.
And in some cases, classes even got more CDs to use more regularly.
With good play, tanks have very high survivability, and thats what they are aiming to tune down a little.

SoO was (imo) a pretty big failure from a tank PoV in terms of survivability, cause there wasnt much, sure you could in a few cases get trucked in a sec, but mostly you had the cloak there to save you anyway.
With the new "slower" lose health/gain health approach they are going for in WoD, it makes tanks incredibly easy to keep alive due to tanks dying slowly.
They dont wanna get back to tanks getting one or two shot again, meaning that tanks "sohuld" slowly go down, but chaining CDs and Active mitigation, good tanks get topped easily again and then taking ages to die again.

I don't believe there is a "quick fix" and it just really needs to be slowly tuned better.
Main problem (imo) is the focus on so many cooldowns outside of active mitigation, especially the smaller short CDs with short CDs (looking at DKs) and honestly some AMs are just a bit to strong as well.
But I would rather see a situation where you mainly have one big CD and then Active mitigation (and maybe smaller CDs to increase AM) than having 5 cooldowns + AM.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:05 pm

He also said that there would be a re-tune of content, as it is all hitting harder than Lei Shen (presumably heroic).

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 6400822272 https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 4145211393

and that all tanks would be re-tuned

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 6273891328
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:11 am

Thels wrote:I don't think that's correct. You need to judge each of the seals once every 20 seconds, so you need to change to each of the seals once every 20 seconds. That means 2 or 3 GCDs, assuming you want to include Truth or not.

Treck wrote:Technicallity, but buffs can extend the normal 20sec duration if reapplied early, stacking similar to some dots currently do for some classes, I think Emp seals reaches 26sec or so.

Seraphim giving 1500 of ALL secondary stats is a huge deal, and will most likely be an absolute winner on every single tankswap fight (where the 2nd tank doesnt take cleave dmg etc) where as Holy shield should win on every upkeep fight, not to mention the dmg components from both of those talents.
Seraphim works as a mini CD cause it increases haste, critt, mastery(ap), multistrike, versitility and bonus armor(also AP) by 1500 with a 50% uptime, both a defensive and offencive cooldown.
Holy Shield especially coupled with +block things like t17 2piece gets incredibly strong, couple that with bosses that give you dots that can all procc holy shield (the dmg part) it ends up being your highest dmg source.

Hmm, so 26 seconds rather than 20, that sounds like the 30% that Theck was referring to. I still wonder, which of the 2 applies:

- When refreshing, new duration is always 26 seconds.
- When refreshing, the remaining duration is increased by 20 seconds, up to 26 seconds.

And, yeah, I can very well see something like:
- Empowered Seals - Best DPS option
- Seraphim - Best Survival option for tank switching
- Holy Shield - Best Survival option for constant tanking
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