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Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Winkle » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:53 am

Nooska wrote:So tell me, do I not know how to play as a BM hunter? Or is it more likely that damage output isn't as clear cut as you are making it out to be to further your standpoint?


Whether 50k dps at 450 ilvl is achievable or not is neither here nor there, the fact that the average SoO lfr dps can well be at that level when at 500+ilvl you'd be expecting to see numbers nearer the 100k mark if a dps executed their rotation properly is more the issue.

Whether that is addressed via a reduction in the health of lfr bosses or a mechanism to improve play, something more eloegant than the wipe buff is required in my eyes.

NB. why would you 3 heal elegon?
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Sagara » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:24 am

This?

A-fucking-gain?

Look, let's be utterly clear - putting "barriers", "incentives" or whatever hogwash people try to wrap this up in, to force people to step up their game on the *lowest* level of raiding is doomed to failure from square zero.

People don't want to learn in their hobbies. We want to, but we're not every person on the planet, and neither are we the righteous defenders of the "Right Way (TM)". If you try and punish people for not learning, people will just give LFR up.

Good riddance you say? Think again! LFR is one of the two (Flex being the other) reasons we probably still have raids nowadays. A quick glance at WoWprogress puts about 200k players doing Normal or higher. Even with a VERY conservative 6mil players that means 3% of the playerbase. Even if I made a 100% mistake, we're still talking about less than 1 player in 10. In short - without LFR and Flex, Raids are about as used as a class questline would be.

In short, Blizzard *needs* those people much more than they need Heroic raiders, or even Normal raiders. I'd even wager that the current LFR population still trumps Flex by a large margin. This is the simple and ugly thruth that needs to be drilled in many skulls right now: The game *needs* a kindergarden level. People don't learn in LFR not because there's no push to learn, but because if there was a push to learn, they'd desert LFR, and that would probably hurt raiding as a whole in the near future (think FL and DS).
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:16 am

I can hit easily 50k dps on a hc-geared 90 *raidbuffed*. Not rocket science. If you don't believe me I can easily log any of my still-blue-geared 90s and demonstrate ;)

Elegon wasn't a brick wall because of the dps requirement, but due to the inability of most guilds to use classes burst capabilities and multitarget abilities to kill sparks.
My guild got it down within an evening, didn't feel challenging at all.

And Sagara, you got a point. My point however was, if they really want LFR to be "kindergarden", it shouldn't be tuned for needing 2-3 high level players to boost the remaining crowd. Because atm, if such players are missing (whenever they are egocentric idiots or actual positive people) the chance of success on lessfacerollable bosses is nil.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Sagara » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:48 am

Worldie wrote:And Sagara, you got a point. My point however was, if they really want LFR to be "kindergarden", it shouldn't be tuned for needing 2-3 high level players to boost the remaining crowd. Because atm, if such players are missing (whenever they are egocentric idiots or actual positive people) the chance of success on lessfacerollable bosses is nil.


To which I'd say, just have the boss Garalo'wned and neutered like a wild dog.

I'll even add something else: *seriously*, have we got such a short term memory that we can't remember this is precisely what happened on Garalon, Durumu, Lei Shen, Norushen, Dark Shaman and Nazgrim? And don't even get started on the gigantic strategic differences between them. Trust Blizz, if something isn't zergable in a two week's time, they'll wack it so hard its head will spin. They're just waiting a bit right now that the dust settles.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Winkle » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:32 am

Sagara wrote:This?

A-fucking-gain?

Look, let's be utterly clear - putting "barriers", "incentives" or whatever hogwash people try to wrap this up in, to force people to step up their game on the *lowest* level of raiding is doomed to failure from square zero.


Perhaps, but Lieris wants something better for/from the playerbase. I don't think that's too much of an ask, although i can see your point.

But lets face it, to even do LFR you have to get to 90, Blizzard has the perfect oppurtunity to educate the playerbase as they level.

I think the lfr metnality of "just make is so dumb you can't fail" strikes some of us as strange simply because we're traditional gamers. Bowsers head wasn't served up on a platter, the Ruby weapon didn't drop dead on sight of cloud.

Playing lfr for me is abit like playing noughts and crosses, i can see why Lieris would like to see it improved.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Teranoid » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:43 am

Sagara wrote:This?

A-fucking-gain?

Look, let's be utterly clear - putting "barriers", "incentives" or whatever hogwash people try to wrap this up in, to force people to step up their game on the *lowest* level of raiding is doomed to failure from square zero.

People don't want to learn in their hobbies. We want to, but we're not every person on the planet, and neither are we the righteous defenders of the "Right Way (TM)". If you try and punish people for not learning, people will just give LFR up.

Good riddance you say? Think again! LFR is one of the two (Flex being the other) reasons we probably still have raids nowadays. A quick glance at WoWprogress puts about 200k players doing Normal or higher. Even with a VERY conservative 6mil players that means 3% of the playerbase. Even if I made a 100% mistake, we're still talking about less than 1 player in 10. In short - without LFR and Flex, Raids are about as used as a class questline would be.

In short, Blizzard *needs* those people much more than they need Heroic raiders, or even Normal raiders. I'd even wager that the current LFR population still trumps Flex by a large margin. This is the simple and ugly thruth that needs to be drilled in many skulls right now: The game *needs* a kindergarden level. People don't learn in LFR not because there's no push to learn, but because if there was a push to learn, they'd desert LFR, and that would probably hurt raiding as a whole in the near future (think FL and DS).


Because every single person who plays this game plays to raid right? No one ever pvps or does anything else.

"LFR is one of the reasons we still have raids"
What sort of delusional fantasy world do you live in where you even think this is remotely true?
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Sagara » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:24 am

Teranoid wrote:Because every single person who plays this game plays to raid right? No one ever pvps or does anything else.

"LFR is one of the reasons we still have raids"
What sort of delusional fantasy world do you live in where you even think this is remotely true?


The world of money, dear boy. Seriously, if LFR hadn't dropped and been the runaway success it was (in terms of players), I'd be betting donuts raids in MoP would have been *much* easier on Normal than what we got, and/or probably been one third smaller.

Actually, the situation isn't saved by any strech of the imagination. Consider exactly how much raiding has changed this x-pack - zilch. Flex is just LFR for pros and hoes. Meanwhile, there has been:

Scenarios
Dungeon Challenges
Heroic Scenarios
Dailies out the wazoo
Two different iterations of dynamic zones

Raids are the poster boys of WoW - super cool and great to show off, but actually a bitch to maintain and pay for.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Lieris » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:38 am

Sagara wrote:This?

A-fucking-gain?

Look, let's be utterly clear - putting "barriers", "incentives" or whatever hogwash people try to wrap this up in, to force people to step up their game on the *lowest* level of raiding is doomed to failure from square zero.

People don't want to learn in their hobbies. We want to, but we're not every person on the planet, and neither are we the righteous defenders of the "Right Way (TM)". If you try and punish people for not learning, people will just give LFR up.

Good riddance you say? Think again! LFR is one of the two (Flex being the other) reasons we probably still have raids nowadays. A quick glance at WoWprogress puts about 200k players doing Normal or higher. Even with a VERY conservative 6mil players that means 3% of the playerbase. Even if I made a 100% mistake, we're still talking about less than 1 player in 10. In short - without LFR and Flex, Raids are about as used as a class questline would be.

In short, Blizzard *needs* those people much more than they need Heroic raiders, or even Normal raiders. I'd even wager that the current LFR population still trumps Flex by a large margin. This is the simple and ugly thruth that needs to be drilled in many skulls right now: The game *needs* a kindergarden level. People don't learn in LFR not because there's no push to learn, but because if there was a push to learn, they'd desert LFR, and that would probably hurt raiding as a whole in the near future (think FL and DS).


First of all it's not true that they would ever remove raiding from the game. Blizzard know that if they did that they would lose their most dedicated customers, the ones who keep their subscription for years on end, the ones who keep server economies ticking and provide the bulk of the tanks and healers. The game would fall apart at max level overnight if they did that. I think you grossly under-estimate the importance of the more dedicated players.

Nobody is expecting LFR players to play at 90% of their potential, nobody has made any such suggestion. I don't think it's too much to ask for that on LFR players are not AFK or merely auto attacking. I also don't think it's too much to ask that after the first week LFR players have a rudimentary knowledge of the boss of the sort that can be summed up in less than 10 words (Nazgrim: Kill adds, don't attack during defensive stance*). Maybe even a silver medal on Proving Grounds.

There are many things that Blizzard could do to make LFR a less toxic place to be and to raise the level of the player base but they have done nothing. SoO LFR is so bad that anyone who can avoid going there doesn't bother with it when before they may have done so to refine their DPS or to "win at Skada".

*maybe have an NPC (in this case Gamon) say words to that effect before each boss and after every wipe.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Flex » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:33 pm

According to the latest GC tweets LFR is the most used raid format, followed by Flex, then Normal and then finally Heroic.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Nooska » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:44 am

Winkle wrote:
Nooska wrote:So tell me, do I not know how to play as a BM hunter? Or is it more likely that damage output isn't as clear cut as you are making it out to be to further your standpoint?


Whether 50k dps at 450 ilvl is achievable or not is neither here nor there


I would tend to agree, I was reacting to a strawman.

@Worldie: hc geared 90 is not ilvl 450, it is a full tier higher at 463 (assuming hc geared means heroic dungeons).


As to why 3 heal Elegon? well it helped a lot on non perfect healers that had a tendency to get OOR of someone that then died. Weh healers got it right, we could go to 2 healing so we had a full dps on each spark, but with 2 tanks helping out it wasn't actually THAT needed.
Also, 3 healing *used* to be the setup for regular 10 man normal mode raiding - sinc eI haven't been in 10 man normal mode since T14, I won't say anything about today.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby jere » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:17 am

Worldie wrote:
And Sagara, you got a point. My point however was, if they really want LFR to be "kindergarden", it shouldn't be tuned for needing 2-3 high level players to boost the remaining crowd. Because atm, if such players are missing (whenever they are egocentric idiots or actual positive people) the chance of success on lessfacerollable bosses is nil.


I have a guess on that:
My guess is that it is balanced that way because that is who is in LFR on average (over the entire LFR player base). If my guess is correct, then if enough skilled players (relative to the amount playing LFR) stopped doing LFR over a long enough period of time, I would bet they would nerf LFR to compensate. I am guessing they balance it based on the number of people doing LFR and how far the average LFR succeeds among other reason. Losing a significant amount of skilled players long enough would probably cause a re-balance of LFR difficulty at some point.

That means it sucks if you get in a group that loses those 2-3, but on average most groups don't run into that problem often enough.

Again, just speculation on my part.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby halabar » Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:10 pm

LFR needs to be neutered more than it already is, primarily because of the impact Flex has had on it. Most of the raiders I know won't touch it at all now, even on alts, because of the lowering of the skill level of the average player in there.

Flex however, seems tuned just about right.

But to expect more of the LFR player?.. please... you have 8 year olds and 55 year olds and everything in between, folks who farm 50 hours a week, and people who play 4 hours a week.. to expect that a "push button to join a queue" raid is going to be anything more than a gear grind is dreaming...
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:16 am

Tecnically this game is rated 18+ as far as i know so 8 yr old shouldn't be playing at all :P
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Nooska » Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:16 am

13+
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Sagara » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:48 am

12+ on the ESRB in Europe. And that's nitpicking and dodging the point. Halabar has the gist of it: LFR isn't for us anymore. The last thing we need to get things in good order is a serious update to the in-game calendar to provide something similar to OpenRaid for Flex (and other stuff).

That way, LFR only exist if we're insane enough to need LFR pieces (not much of a problem this tier), or for bored unexpected free nights.
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