Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Teranoid » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:59 am

Zalaria wrote:The main reason LFR works (especially early in a patch) is because that handful of good players can make up for the bad ones. If you take away the good players, the bad ones can't clear it and are more likely to leave the game.

Blizzard will never do that.


Except the fact that Flex raiding has pretty much done that.
User avatar
Teranoid
 
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:56 pm

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby econ21 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:20 am

Fenrìr wrote:Not sure how I missed this, but Open Raid and OQ are functionally different in that the groups are hand picked, not randomly generated like LFR is.


I haven't created a premade with these tools before (I've just joined one) but I wonder how picky the RL is? In my case, the RL certainly did not know me. I doubt she armoried me. She never really led the raid (never spoke much at all, didn't give tactics). It felt just like LFR. Except that the players were all geared, cooperative and competent. I think what's going on is that these tools are at the moment selecting the more knowledgeable (and therefore typically "better") players. My hunch is that once everyone learns about them, the playerbase using them will look very like LFR's playerbase.

I also have a suspicion that Blizzard will incorporate some such tools in the future (I read a hint to that effect).

I guess with a premade the RL does have more real power than with a LFR raid. But otherwise with these tools, they do seem very like the random LFD/LFR tools to me.
econ21
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:53 am

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:43 am

I admittedly haven't really played 5.4 LFR, but according to all my (many) contacts experiences, the LFR got disastrously horrible.

T14 LFR has very long queue and very subpar people since almost everyone skips it due to welfare epics, ToT LFR is almost as bad as when ToT just got released since "good" players don't run it anymore either, and SoO LFR doesn't really have enough strong players to carry the runs since people prefer to spend their time doing Flex with OQ/OpenRaid/Friends in general rather than frustrate themselves with random bads.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13661
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby cdan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:52 am

Because of the limited time I have and my US time zone on EU servers problem I pretty much have to run LFR as there is rarely any Flex raiding going on when I am around, but there is usually always a couple of LFRs on the go. It can suck really badly, but 4 / 5 runs aren't bad. The biggest noises come, in my experience, from primadonnas whenever there is a wipe - self-styled uber raiders who are getting their precious feet dirty walking the same path as LFR-types and who like to tell everyone just how much everybody else stinks.

Overall I find there are more instances of high ilvl ego tantrums than there are "idiots standing in the bad" and if anything it is that arrogant, superior attitude that turns me off playing the game. I can even see it creeping into some of the comments on here.

Some people need to relax a bit more and match their expectations to the level they are playing at.
cdan
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 am

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:05 am

The problem cdan, is that LFR is tuned wrong.

It is tuned with people "moving out of stuff after taking some damage from it", and actually doing more dps than autoattacking.

However, Blizzard doesn't realize that the average Donald is worse than that. There's always several people in every LFR not even passing 50k dps at lvl 90 in ToT/SoO, which I could hit as neo 90 in 450 blues on all my dmg chars.

The result is that if there's no "egocentric high level player", most LFRs fail miserably or need to achieve several stacks of determination (hello 8 stacks on lei shen / durumu when I was playing).

If Blizzard intends LFR to cather the intended audience so that the presence of such egocentrical higher level players is not needed, then they need to dumb it further down. Because people at the moment almost expect there to be someone to carry them, and don't even bother trying to improve.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13661
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Flex » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:34 am

Ruldar wrote:In my experience, it frequently only takes one person to step up and make an LFR run good


While going for my last runestone this was the case. Got in for Dark Shaman and Nazgrim. 2 wipes of Dark Shaman where the tank was very explicit about what needed to be done. Both tanks dropped group after that, a windwalker monk tanked up to Nazgrim to keep the group moving. New tanks came in, one was very forceful but respectful. Two wipes on Nazgrim as it took time to really sink in that "no the tank wasn't kidding when they said killing adds is more important."
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7508
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby cdan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:45 am

Worldie wrote:The problem cdan, is that LFR is tuned wrong.

It is tuned with people "moving out of stuff after taking some damage from it", and actually doing more dps than autoattacking.

However, Blizzard doesn't realize that the average Donald is worse than that. There's always several people in every LFR not even passing 50k dps at lvl 90 in ToT/SoO, which I could hit as neo 90 in 450 blues on all my dmg chars.

The result is that if there's no "egocentric high level player", most LFRs fail miserably or need to achieve several stacks of determination (hello 8 stacks on lei shen / durumu when I was playing).

If Blizzard intends LFR to cather the intended audience so that the presence of such egocentrical higher level players is not needed, then they need to dumb it further down. Because people at the moment almost expect there to be someone to carry them, and don't even bother trying to improve.


I disagree based on my personal experiences - it may be different for you. The ego maniacs screaming at everyone about how horrible they are after a rare wipe is the most common source of irritation I have in the game (apart from the TI missing forge mystery). The number of times I have been in an LFR where there has been a problem with a lot of bad-standers has been far less than outbreaks of ego-junkies.

Just FYI, I never go into an LFR not knowing the basics of the fights and I always perform in the top 20-25% so it is not me that is the source of frustration for the noob-screamers.

Maybe I've just been around so long that wiping instead of zerging is not a major cause of distress. Zerging raids is still odd for me.
cdan
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 am

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Lieris » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:01 am

Durumu is hilarious whether it's the light beams all being on AFK people or his instant death mechanic, there's never a dull moment on LFR. His spout attack is so narrow and he turns so slowly yet by the end of it there will be 10-15 dead without fail.

For a lot of the player base it doesn't matter what you explain or how many times they fail on the same thing, they simply don't care because they'll get their loot eventually anyway.
Lieris
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2181
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:49 am

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Jabari » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:53 am

Worldie wrote: Because people at the moment almost expect there to be someone to carry them, and don't even bother trying to improve.


Lieris wrote:<...> they simply don't care because they'll get their loot eventually anyway.


I think we've found the source of the problem...
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 667
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Teranoid » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:55 am

What people being lazy and expecting to be carried?

This has been known from the inception of LFR.
User avatar
Teranoid
 
Posts: 2158
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:56 pm

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:02 pm

I think Jabari nailed the problem and reason for which the playerbase of WoW Pugs / LFR is so terrible right now ^_^
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13661
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Ruldar » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:08 pm

Flex wrote:
Ruldar wrote:In my experience, it frequently only takes one person to step up and make an LFR run good


While going for my last runestone this was the case. Got in for Dark Shaman and Nazgrim. 2 wipes of Dark Shaman where the tank was very explicit about what needed to be done. Both tanks dropped group after that, a windwalker monk tanked up to Nazgrim to keep the group moving. New tanks came in, one was very forceful but respectful. Two wipes on Nazgrim as it took time to really sink in that "no the tank wasn't kidding when they said killing adds is more important."


I was straight up proud of the last Sha of Pride lfr kill I was in on with the Pally. One wipe was a given after a hunter face pulled, but watching that attempt let me know that almost nobody had a clue about what to do. On the run back I gave thorough instructions in chat on when to get out of what, when to stack together, etc., and we had that bad boy down with only two dead at the end of the very next attempt. I'm pretty sure I was grinning from ear to ear as the raid split up.
User avatar
Ruldar
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:26 am

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Lieris » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:18 pm

Teranoid wrote:What people being lazy and expecting to be carried?

This has been known from the inception of LFR.


Hence this topic. Blizzard have been feeding this behaviour for an entire expansion and the results are obvious. It's up to them to put mechanisms in place to stop the rot.

Maybe LFR as an idea (and the queueing system for PVE as a whole) is completely unsalvageable and it would be better to remove it altogether. Something like Flex arguably fills the casual raiding niche much better, all that's missing are some in-game tools (similar to Oqueue) to make forming a group and filtering out people a bit easier.
Lieris
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2181
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:49 am

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Flex » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:48 pm

Teranoid wrote:What people being lazy and expecting to be carried?

This has been known from the inception of LFR.


or 40 man raids...
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7508
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Nooska » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:41 am

Worldie wrote: There's always several people in every LFR not even passing 50k dps at lvl 90 in ToT/SoO, which I could hit as neo 90 in 450 blues on all my dmg chars.


Well congratulations, but I call BS on the last part of that statement.
I very well remember Elegons dps requirements, and if 50k dps was available to all dps on 450 gear, Elegon would not have been the brick wall it was for many guilds (iirc, 60k dps was enough in 10 man with 3 healers).

Don't get me wrong, you do have a point in regards to people in LFR not outputting to their potential - but guess what, LFR isn' tuned to have people outputting to their potential.
Also, specific gear pieces make a world of difference - on the Flex run we did the first week, I barely got above 70K on most fights, being in ilvl 491 gear; reason? T14 LFR bow (sha touched with gem) and no legendary meta. This combined with a few changes to how BM works so I had to change up some of what I used to do, as well as being a little rusty due to a few montsh hiatus.

So tell me, do I not know how to play as a BM hunter? Or is it more likely that damage output isn't as clear cut as you are making it out to be to further your standpoint?
Main Characters:
Nooska, Blood Elf BM/SV Hunter on Argent Dawn (EU)
Morosin, Bloody freezing orc death knight on Argent Dawn (EU)
Niisca, Shady forsaken "priest" on Argent Dawn (EU)

Keeper Emeritus of the BM hunters guide on Elitist Jerks and the wowhead version untill patch 5.3.
User avatar
Nooska
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:55 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Skye1013 and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Skye1013 and 1 guest