Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Ruldar » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:26 am

In my experience, it frequently only takes one person to step up and make an LFR run good (or step down and make it bad, so to speak). If you end up with someone in the raid who is willing to offer instruction, feedback, and praise for boss kills, it can actually be fun.

I've started doing it in SoO wing 1 runs, and it is night and day compared to runs where everyone bitches at everyone else from beginning to end. Yeah, you still have people who are being carried, but unless it's half the raid you generally have enough dps and healing to make it work. It's not like the LFR fights are tuned that tightly anyway.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby econ21 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:35 am

Fenrìr wrote:How exactly would Proving Grounds be used to weed out the 'bad' or 'less skilled' player?


Easiest option would be to say you need gold for your role on your character in order to queue for LFR.

I also don't find PG to be sufficiently compelling to want to do endless rounds, but doing gold it did seem to be quite a good test of basic tank competence: picking up mobs, damaging them and surviving.

The required time investment (about 30 mins) would be trivial compared to all these grinds we do for valor, honor or rep. Or compared to actually queuing for and running LFR each week.

I am not sure it is the lack of skill that is the problem with LFR though - it may be the slacking or the lack of etiquette. Hence my proposals to address for all three issues. Right now there's also a lack of information about boss mechanics which is making things much more painful, but that largely passes with time.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:19 am

But again, Econ21, I'm going to point you to the simple statement of "It's not engaging enough for me to do it". Sure, you may find it's a measly 30 minutes, but that's 30 mins of complete and utter boredom that I'm not going to enjoy just because there's this stipulation of having to have it. To each their own, I understand that, but when a company starts to set a hard barrier (attunements much?), it tends to drive away a certain player base. And for Blizzard, they're here for the money.

So when players start to put that stipulation on stuff, then you're getting into what people see of requirements of having to have the last boss of a raid already killed before they can get into a pug. They're good players, but they won't ever see the raid because they don't have X or Y achievement.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby econ21 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:33 pm

Fenrìr wrote:...it tends to drive away a certain player base. And for Blizzard, they're here for the money.


You may be right. There's a trade off: would schemes to socially engineer the player base deter more players than they attract by improving the experience? I don't know. Personally, I think LFR is now too important for business to be allowed to fail and that making it less toxic would be good for Blizzard's finances.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:41 pm

Well Fenrir, one could have argued as well that the whole 30 minutes it takes to get 460 ilvl to enter first LFR are boring, but they are there :)
[well, not there if you are a rich bastard, but w/e :P]
Artificial cockblocks that force you to prove you actually have more brain and coordination than my 1 yr nephew would be a good thing. Similarly to how most competitive games require you to do some "placement rounds" before putting you into the actual teamwork environment with people of your same skill.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Flex » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:46 pm

One thing mentioned on twitter was you'd tie ilvl gating for LFR queue availability to proving grounds ranking.

Tier 1 raid requires ilvl 500 baseline however if you get a silver ranking it requires 490 for you. Not hard gating it, but lowering the restriction.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:13 am

Well Fenrir, one could have argued as well that the whole 30 minutes it takes to get 460 ilvl to enter first LFR are boring, but they are there


I feel like that's another apples and oranges comparison, Worldie, but not as much as the first point. I don't view a natural character progression path as a hard stipulation or as an extra thing to complete. Boring...yes, leveling alts can be boring to some people; however if you take the time to level the alt to raid or to kill time from your main, you're naturally going to be going for that gear.


Similarly to how most competitive games require you to do some "placement rounds" before putting you into the actual teamwork environment with people of your same skill.


Now that would be an interesting concept and might renew the interest in LFR / LFD ques for the base of who LFR is designed for.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Winkle » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:50 am

I think it's interesting you think 30mins in a proving ground is a waste of time or boring when you can lose infinitely more time in LFR.

Yesterday i joined an LFR group on Nazgrim that already had two stacks of wipe buff. Even with that the boss enraged with 25% hp remaining. Perhaps Blizzard have just set the bar to high for Nazgrim, the average raid DPS was approximately 60k per DPS.

As a tank on my alt BrM i new exactly what to do, I crontrolled the boss and adds as appropriate, instructed the raid to not attack during defensive stance and to interrupt and kill the shaman as a priority, all of which was conducted to a resoanable degree.

It wasn't until the 4th wipe buff and over an hour of my time had been spent on a single boss that we killed him.

Every time i queue for LFR it wastes AT LEAST 1/2 hour of my time, and every time i queue for LFR i'm reminded why i shouldn't.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:54 am

Let me frank, I have not stepped foot into an LFR since I got my Runestones last patch. I know LFR is there mostly for the people who have no desire to be in a competitive raid guild or they simply want to see the content. I feel like that is conversation that's been hashed enough in another thread.

But LFR is not for me. The frustration from wipes, the lack of participation and the overall lack of knowledge of fights is not fun and quite frankly, boring and a waste of time.



But going back to the whole Proving Grounds as, basically, an attunement to get into LFR...you cannot expect people who do it to still go look up strats. There might be a slightly higher percentage, but there's still going to be those people who go into LFR and afk, underperform and/or stand in stuff only because they're expecting everyone else to carry them because it's LFR and you can ignore most mechanics (old mentality, I know, but that mentality still exists which is quite proven in your previous experience).

Besides, I'm not complaining that I find 30 mins a waste of time or boring, I'm pointing out that you cannot set a stipulation in today's WoW and expect the people who content is geared for to be in that content. Sure it does equate to that '30' minutes to get that stipulation...if you get it done in 1 go. What happens if you wipe and got to start over? Then you're just adding time to it. Yea, you could argue that it's a 1 and done thing, which is what all attunements have been, but it's forcing people to go do X for Y thing.




Now, I can get behind Worldie's suggestion of you're grouped with people who have done Proving Grounds on a similar level.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Lieris » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:23 am

Fenrìr wrote:But going back to the whole Proving Grounds as, basically, an attunement to get into LFR...you cannot expect people who do it to still go look up strats. There might be a slightly higher percentage, but there's still going to be those people who go into LFR and afk, underperform and/or stand in stuff only because they're expecting everyone else to carry them because it's LFR and you can ignore most mechanics (old mentality, I know, but that mentality still exists which is quite proven in your previous experience).


I don't think anybody is saying that achieving something on PG would be a magic bullet solution to fix all of LFR's many ills; there simply isn't one. It needs to be a combination of several things and I think getting a gold would at least fix one of the problems and raise the skill level of the player base.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:49 am

My point about PG (or whatever alternative) is that you'd force people into playing with people of same level of skill.

That way, you don't have LFR being literally tuned for having someone carrying the raid (dont say it aint, because without 2-3 people breaking 150k+ dps carrying the bads who can't break 50k with 500 ilvl, most LFRs tend to fail or get to as high as 7-8 stacks of tenacity to beat the less-facerollable bosses).
Plus, if someone has a low "skill rank", and gets frustrated of being matched with bad people, he would feel motivated to improve, beat that "proving ground level over nine thousand" and step into the skillful people.

Right now, most of the people that do LFR don't care or don't even bother with improving, because as long as someone will carry them, they won't need to.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:18 am

From Econ21: I find it a bit bizarre that everyone hates on LFR and waxes lyrical about openraid/oqueue when they seem functionally very similar (queuing systems for raids).


Not sure how I missed this, but Open Raid and OQ are functionally different in that the groups are hand picked, not randomly generated like LFR is. Even if the Open Raid or OQ group is queing for LFR, it's still a chosen group of people with a similar mindset of getting through it effortlessly and as quickly as possible.





No, Worldie, I completely agree with you and when I was doing LFR's randomly during ToT it was 2-3 people, at best, doing the best they could while other people would just AFK white swing, or cheat in or just be flat out improperly geared/gemmed/enchanted. I do like that idea of being grouped with people of a similar skill and it might be a nice band aid fix. But I feel like it would have be done as a character level, not account wide.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:32 am

Oh I totally agree it should have to be character wide.

Though, if a person has the skill to play a character at high level, he is usually decent enough to at least not be dead weight on any char, so even account wide would make sense.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Zalaria » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:33 am

The problem with grouping people with similar skill is you're essentially screwing over the bottom X% of the playerbase (X is where the tuning of the raid lands). Players at the skill threshold to defeat the bosses will consistently clear the raid, after a couple wipes. Players above the skill threshold will one-shot the bosses easily. But players below the skill threshold will never clear it. They're stuck with other low-skill players and don't have that handful of good ones to carry them through.

The main reason LFR works (especially early in a patch) is because that handful of good players can make up for the bad ones. If you take away the good players, the bad ones can't clear it and are more likely to leave the game.

Blizzard will never do that.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Ruldar » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:50 am

Ehh, I'd rather keep carrying people then have 4 hour lfr queues, because that's what would happen if Blizzard significantly raises the barrier of entry for queueing.

That said, once I get a 528+ weapon for the Pally, I'm not sure I see myself queueing up for LFR again until the next patch/expansion. I'm already to the point of not queueing with the Lock now that he has the eyeball staff from Pride, which kind of means Flex really is killing off LFR, at least for me.

I suppose there's always the Mage, but I'm not sure I care enough to gear him up. The run through ToT LFR with him this weekend was a terrible experience, easily equal to the worst runs the other two characters ever participated in.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Teranoid » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:59 am

Zalaria wrote:The main reason LFR works (especially early in a patch) is because that handful of good players can make up for the bad ones. If you take away the good players, the bad ones can't clear it and are more likely to leave the game.

Blizzard will never do that.


Except the fact that Flex raiding has pretty much done that.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby econ21 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:20 am

Fenrìr wrote:Not sure how I missed this, but Open Raid and OQ are functionally different in that the groups are hand picked, not randomly generated like LFR is.


I haven't created a premade with these tools before (I've just joined one) but I wonder how picky the RL is? In my case, the RL certainly did not know me. I doubt she armoried me. She never really led the raid (never spoke much at all, didn't give tactics). It felt just like LFR. Except that the players were all geared, cooperative and competent. I think what's going on is that these tools are at the moment selecting the more knowledgeable (and therefore typically "better") players. My hunch is that once everyone learns about them, the playerbase using them will look very like LFR's playerbase.

I also have a suspicion that Blizzard will incorporate some such tools in the future (I read a hint to that effect).

I guess with a premade the RL does have more real power than with a LFR raid. But otherwise with these tools, they do seem very like the random LFD/LFR tools to me.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:43 am

I admittedly haven't really played 5.4 LFR, but according to all my (many) contacts experiences, the LFR got disastrously horrible.

T14 LFR has very long queue and very subpar people since almost everyone skips it due to welfare epics, ToT LFR is almost as bad as when ToT just got released since "good" players don't run it anymore either, and SoO LFR doesn't really have enough strong players to carry the runs since people prefer to spend their time doing Flex with OQ/OpenRaid/Friends in general rather than frustrate themselves with random bads.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby cdan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:52 am

Because of the limited time I have and my US time zone on EU servers problem I pretty much have to run LFR as there is rarely any Flex raiding going on when I am around, but there is usually always a couple of LFRs on the go. It can suck really badly, but 4 / 5 runs aren't bad. The biggest noises come, in my experience, from primadonnas whenever there is a wipe - self-styled uber raiders who are getting their precious feet dirty walking the same path as LFR-types and who like to tell everyone just how much everybody else stinks.

Overall I find there are more instances of high ilvl ego tantrums than there are "idiots standing in the bad" and if anything it is that arrogant, superior attitude that turns me off playing the game. I can even see it creeping into some of the comments on here.

Some people need to relax a bit more and match their expectations to the level they are playing at.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:05 am

The problem cdan, is that LFR is tuned wrong.

It is tuned with people "moving out of stuff after taking some damage from it", and actually doing more dps than autoattacking.

However, Blizzard doesn't realize that the average Donald is worse than that. There's always several people in every LFR not even passing 50k dps at lvl 90 in ToT/SoO, which I could hit as neo 90 in 450 blues on all my dmg chars.

The result is that if there's no "egocentric high level player", most LFRs fail miserably or need to achieve several stacks of determination (hello 8 stacks on lei shen / durumu when I was playing).

If Blizzard intends LFR to cather the intended audience so that the presence of such egocentrical higher level players is not needed, then they need to dumb it further down. Because people at the moment almost expect there to be someone to carry them, and don't even bother trying to improve.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Flex » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:34 am

Ruldar wrote:In my experience, it frequently only takes one person to step up and make an LFR run good


While going for my last runestone this was the case. Got in for Dark Shaman and Nazgrim. 2 wipes of Dark Shaman where the tank was very explicit about what needed to be done. Both tanks dropped group after that, a windwalker monk tanked up to Nazgrim to keep the group moving. New tanks came in, one was very forceful but respectful. Two wipes on Nazgrim as it took time to really sink in that "no the tank wasn't kidding when they said killing adds is more important."
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby cdan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:45 am

Worldie wrote:The problem cdan, is that LFR is tuned wrong.

It is tuned with people "moving out of stuff after taking some damage from it", and actually doing more dps than autoattacking.

However, Blizzard doesn't realize that the average Donald is worse than that. There's always several people in every LFR not even passing 50k dps at lvl 90 in ToT/SoO, which I could hit as neo 90 in 450 blues on all my dmg chars.

The result is that if there's no "egocentric high level player", most LFRs fail miserably or need to achieve several stacks of determination (hello 8 stacks on lei shen / durumu when I was playing).

If Blizzard intends LFR to cather the intended audience so that the presence of such egocentrical higher level players is not needed, then they need to dumb it further down. Because people at the moment almost expect there to be someone to carry them, and don't even bother trying to improve.


I disagree based on my personal experiences - it may be different for you. The ego maniacs screaming at everyone about how horrible they are after a rare wipe is the most common source of irritation I have in the game (apart from the TI missing forge mystery). The number of times I have been in an LFR where there has been a problem with a lot of bad-standers has been far less than outbreaks of ego-junkies.

Just FYI, I never go into an LFR not knowing the basics of the fights and I always perform in the top 20-25% so it is not me that is the source of frustration for the noob-screamers.

Maybe I've just been around so long that wiping instead of zerging is not a major cause of distress. Zerging raids is still odd for me.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Lieris » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:01 am

Durumu is hilarious whether it's the light beams all being on AFK people or his instant death mechanic, there's never a dull moment on LFR. His spout attack is so narrow and he turns so slowly yet by the end of it there will be 10-15 dead without fail.

For a lot of the player base it doesn't matter what you explain or how many times they fail on the same thing, they simply don't care because they'll get their loot eventually anyway.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Jabari » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:53 am

Worldie wrote: Because people at the moment almost expect there to be someone to carry them, and don't even bother trying to improve.


Lieris wrote:<...> they simply don't care because they'll get their loot eventually anyway.


I think we've found the source of the problem...
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Teranoid » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:55 am

What people being lazy and expecting to be carried?

This has been known from the inception of LFR.
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