Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:40 am

Sagara wrote:About that spoiler:

Alliance being proud of Varian? You must not know the same playerbase I do. I have read (and not on the official forums) players arguing Varian should have had the new Warchief-BEG- for mercy, or that they should have made Org a new internment camp.

Also, I really did like that cinematic. Hoping Jaina sin't on the fast track to raid-boss-dom, and she'll merely be a foil for future Alliance stories.


I am conflicted about it.

On the one hand, i'm of the camp that the Horde should just gtfo all present and past Alliance held territory because seriously, we were here first and fuck the Orcs. I feel like after all the shit we endured at the hands of Garrosh's horde, we at least deserve reparations for Theramore.

On the other hand, the Horde is kind of fucked right now. The coup d'etat forces, made up almost entirely of the lesser Horde races (Forsaken, Elves, Tauren, Trolls) had to come in, with the Alliances help, and kill the majority of the Horde's military, as well as doing significant damage to their capital. There isn't much they COULD give even if they agreed to pay for Garrosh's crimes. Not to mention there really isn't anything they could do that could actually pay for the lost lives in Theramore. So it seems pointless.

As much as it pains me to say it, I can't help but feel Varian made the right call. There's no real point in sacrificing more Alliance lives to trying to crush the Horde now. The only thing I think we unequivocally should do, is get the Forsaken out of Gilneas and Hillsbrad. Varian says as much in one of the post-kill gossip boxes. If we could use the Siege of Orgrimmar as leverage to negotiate them out, or strike while they're weak to force them out, that would be optimal. (I'd love it if we could oust the Forsaken and reclaim Lordaeron/Tirisfal too, but that's probably impossible at this point.)

Really i think the Horde I hate most right now is the Forsaken/Sylvanas and her stupid plague. I have no beef with the Tauren (hohoho) and the Darkspears seem more than willing to leave us alone. The Orcs are pretty broken now and it's hard for me to care too hard about their land holdings. Same with the Goblins. The Elves of course I'm still pissed at but we have an understand and they keep to their own.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:20 am

I think someone should kill Malfurion. Ever since he came back, Tyrande became barely a step above arm candy, even tho they're married and such.

Tyrande's story became paralized with Malfurion's return... and in fact seems to have regressed.

Just throwing it out there.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Amirya » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:28 am

Tyrande was Not Prepared.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:29 am

Disagree about the Darkspears "willing to leave us alone".

Remember the dialogue with Voljin in 5.3: he says that "we might help each other to defeat Garrosh, but we're still enemyes".
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Ruldar » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:45 am

Sabindeus wrote:The only thing I think we unequivocally should do, is get the Forsaken out of Gilneas and Hillsbrad. Varian says as much in one of the post-kill gossip boxes. If we could use the Siege of Orgrimmar as leverage to negotiate them out, or strike while they're weak to force them out, that would be optimal. (I'd love it if we could oust the Forsaken and reclaim Lordaeron/Tirisfal too, but that's probably impossible at this point.)


Oh man, that would be awesome. Everquest actually did something like that in one of its expansions. A Frog playable race got added at one point, and the developers revamped the evil-aligned Troll starting city into a good-aligned paladin Froglok starting city. Now that caused an uproar, and in the end it only lasted a few expansions before being reverted. Good times.
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby Worldie » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:26 am

Split from previous topic, feel free to talk freely as I included a [Spoilers] in the title.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:10 pm

Worldie wrote:Disagree about the Darkspears "willing to leave us alone".

Remember the dialogue with Voljin in 5.3: he says that "we might help each other to defeat Garrosh, but we're still enemyes".


I mean that's fair, I don't think the "enemy" status will ever go away. I guess the question is, will Varian's lack of action here end up just giving the Horde time to regroup so they can continue to wage war on the Alliance?
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby Worldie » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:11 pm

I'm sure we'll hear more about that *soon* (tm).

Next expansion might tell a lot about this.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:14 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:About that spoiler:

Alliance being proud of Varian? You must not know the same playerbase I do. I have read (and not on the official forums) players arguing Varian should have had the new Warchief-BEG- for mercy, or that they should have made Org a new internment camp.

Also, I really did like that cinematic. Hoping Jaina sin't on the fast track to raid-boss-dom, and she'll merely be a foil for future Alliance stories.


I am conflicted about it.

On the one hand, i'm of the camp that the Horde should just gtfo all present and past Alliance held territory because seriously, we were here first and fuck the Orcs. I feel like after all the shit we endured at the hands of Garrosh's horde, we at least deserve reparations for Theramore.

On the other hand, the Horde is kind of fucked right now. The coup d'etat forces, made up almost entirely of the lesser Horde races (Forsaken, Elves, Tauren, Trolls) had to come in, with the Alliances help, and kill the majority of the Horde's military, as well as doing significant damage to their capital. There isn't much they COULD give even if they agreed to pay for Garrosh's crimes. Not to mention there really isn't anything they could do that could actually pay for the lost lives in Theramore. So it seems pointless.

As much as it pains me to say it, I can't help but feel Varian made the right call. There's no real point in sacrificing more Alliance lives to trying to crush the Horde now. The only thing I think we unequivocally should do, is get the Forsaken out of Gilneas and Hillsbrad. Varian says as much in one of the post-kill gossip boxes. If we could use the Siege of Orgrimmar as leverage to negotiate them out, or strike while they're weak to force them out, that would be optimal. (I'd love it if we could oust the Forsaken and reclaim Lordaeron/Tirisfal too, but that's probably impossible at this point.)

Really i think the Horde I hate most right now is the Forsaken/Sylvanas and her stupid plague. I have no beef with the Tauren (hohoho) and the Darkspears seem more than willing to leave us alone. The Orcs are pretty broken now and it's hard for me to care too hard about their land holdings. Same with the Goblins. The Elves of course I'm still pissed at but we have an understand and they keep to their own.


Why did you have to spoil all my agreement to your entire point by dissing elves :'-(
But yeah, some serious anti Forsaken action is more than due.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:24 pm

Sagara wrote:Why did you have to spoil all my agreement to your entire point by dissing elves :'-(
But yeah, some serious anti Forsaken action is more than due.


Because fuck the elves that's why

:P

Seriously though, the Elves would be the first race I'd accept an honest peace accords with if they were to propose it. We were coexisting fine until the third war.
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby Sagara » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:31 pm

Honestly, if the faction lines weren't so hard due to game mechanics, I'd pay good money to have those Alliance negociations succeed back in 5.1
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Worldie » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:56 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Seriously though, the Elves would be the first race I'd accept an honest peace accords with if they were to propose it. We were coexisting fine until the third war.

I don't know if Blood Elves can ever accept how the Alliance treated them at Illidan times.

As far as I know, Elves have long memory and value personal honor very high.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:10 pm

Worldie wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Seriously though, the Elves would be the first race I'd accept an honest peace accords with if they were to propose it. We were coexisting fine until the third war.

I don't know if Blood Elves can ever accept how the Alliance treated them at Illidan times.

As far as I know, Elves have long memory and value personal honor very high.


It helps that the elves live for thousands of years, so they were alive when some of the slights actually happened.
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby halabar » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:21 pm

Push the forsaken and the orcs into the maelstrom, and I could get along with the rest of the horde..

I also wonder how Vol'jin will respond to the next wave of Zandalari if the leaks about "The Dark Below" are even partially correct..
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:23 pm

I think that they need to kill several faction leaders to get the ball rolling.

Kill Malfurion, for the reasons I stated above. Kill Velen too, the Draenei might be forced to appear in stories if Velen is not there anymore. Kill Sylvannas too.
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby bldavis » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:38 pm

foresaken...i say let them raise the dead of the horde as new members of the race and that is all, they can keep UC, who would want it anyway, but gtfo of gilneas

orcs - they can keep the desert of durotar..let the alliance keep their road through southern barrens (though not much point with theramore being gone now,,,) and as long as both sides live up to the no fighting, i have no issues

really the only place that WAS alliance territory before the horde came is lorederan, and now it is a plague infused cesspit (and i am saying this as someone who's main toon right now is a foresaken dk)
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:53 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I think that they need to kill several faction leaders to get the ball rolling.

Kill Malfurion, for the reasons I stated above. Kill Velen too, the Draenei might be forced to appear in stories if Velen is not there anymore. Kill Sylvannas too.

I don't know about actually killing Velen, but an attack on Exodar during the eventual Burning Legion invasion would be a good excuse to revamp the Draenei capital and starting area as well as provide interesting story for them.
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:56 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Worldie wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Seriously though, the Elves would be the first race I'd accept an honest peace accords with if they were to propose it. We were coexisting fine until the third war.

I don't know if Blood Elves can ever accept how the Alliance treated them at Illidan times.

As far as I know, Elves have long memory and value personal honor very high.


It helps that the elves live for thousands of years, so they were alive when some of the slights actually happened.


thousands of years?? what slights??
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:58 pm

bldavis wrote:they can keep UC, who would want it anyway


maybe all the survivors of Lordaeron who fled to Stormwind during the third war?
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Sagara » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:28 pm

Worldie wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Seriously though, the Elves would be the first race I'd accept an honest peace accords with if they were to propose it. We were coexisting fine until the third war.

I don't know if Blood Elves can ever accept how the Alliance treated them at Illidan times.

As far as I know, Elves have long memory and value personal honor very high.


Yeah, but they came dreadfully close to up and move their alliegance in 5.1. It's clear that at least Lor'Themar is willing to see beyond Garithos' folly.
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby bldavis » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:28 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
bldavis wrote:they can keep UC, who would want it anyway


maybe all the survivors of Lordaeron who fled to Stormwind during the third war?

like i said...its a septic sludge pit...
if they want it..go for it
but i doubt anyone would even if it was their homeland
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby Dantriges » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:43 pm

Azeroth was hit by two major disasters, the plague and the cataclysm, Allaince and Horde fielded three major expeditions, one to Outland, one to Northrend, last one to Pandaria. Both nations were formed from the remaining survivors of the third war, we had some major conflicts in BC and Wrath and some fighting during Cataclysm with the cultists and elemental allies (but seems most of that was a burden on independant elements aka adventurers and some minor factions). Oh and the recent Horde-Alliance war. Somehow I doubt that the Alliance has the manpower to smash the Horde. Not because of the Horde´s strength but occupying and subjugating a land across the ocean is an expensive affair. Ok the Alliance can go full genocide but I doubt they have the manpower to actually pull it off when the Horde scatters. And some other Horde capitals are still standing. Oh and they still have to occupy the former orc land to keep out the other nasty critters that will move in after the orcs are gone.

So i don´t think Varian had much choice
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Re: Patch 5.4 - Flex Raid, Siege of Orgrimmar, and more!

Postby Passionario » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:39 am

Sabindeus wrote:Really i think the Horde I hate most right now is the Forsaken/Sylvanas and her stupid plague.

My tinfoil hat theory is that Blizzard's writers initially intended for Sylvanas to become the post-Cataclysm expansion's final boss. That's why she was portrayed as an unrepentant monster in 4.0 quest lines, outright stating that the only difference between her and the Lich King is that she serves the Horde. Likewise, Garrosh himself at that point was written as an impulsive but well-meaning orc, who throws Krom'gar off the cliff for his dishonorable actions and all but threatens to do the same to Sylvanas.

However, when the time came to write MoP's story, someone with a higher pay grade decided that Garrosh would make a better final boss. That's why he took a 180-degree turn from his 4.0 self into Sha-eating, Theramore-bombing villainy and all of Sylvanas's dangling plot lines (like, say, the fate of Koltira) were suddenly dropped and forgotten.
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby Sagara » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:43 am

Considering Varian has officialy set his sights on the Forsaken, and Lor'themar himself acknoledges Sylvanas as a security risk, it don't think those lines have been dropped *quite* yet. More like, stuffed in the frigde.
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Re: Patch 5.4 lore and beyond [Spoilers]

Postby Darielle » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:15 am

But it's definitely somewhat feeling like Garrosh was strung up at the last minute. They put effort into "making him feel like honor blah blah" and then suddenly threw him off the deep end when they realised people weren't getting quite so amped with Mists.
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