Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:42 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I wonder if in the MMO genre (has the subscription model ever really been tried in other genres?), that the subscription is dead because WoW essentially has it on lockdown, or if it is simply no longer a viable model at all?


I think it's both. During Classic/TBC/WOTLK absolutely had it on lockdown because the other MMOs were lacklustre and nobody was doing the F2P thing right; F2P was considered garbage or throwaway and millions of people were okay with paying for a premium experience. That's no longer the case as LOL is massive and even Valve are trying out F2P with Team Fortress 2. COD has a subscription service but it's only optional. I think that folk are used to the idea of F2P now and it no longer has the stigma it once had.

I think at this point what premium subscription services and in-game purchases WoW could offer is a more interesting discussion than whether or not they go F2P (something I view as inevitable if the game continues to decline).
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:47 pm

Oh I agree that it's likely inevitable at some point, that seems to be the pattern, though it may not be for some time yet. And yes, it would be an interesting discussion on how WoW could monetize the game in a F2P model. I was just curious if the thought was that there really won't be subscription based games anymore, or with WoW out of the picture (or not nearly as popular as it is even now) if there is room for that model to still be successful.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:25 pm

One of the biggest difference (imo) between F2p and sub in the past is that F2p tended to attract mostly kids and immature people who couldnt afford the sub, while sub was played mostly by "mature" people.

This is no longer the case though as I often find people under 18 playing WoW (which is tecnically forbidden afaik)
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby samsara » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:33 pm

Worldie wrote:One of the biggest difference (imo) between F2p and sub in the past is that F2p tended to attract mostly kids and immature people who couldnt afford the sub, while sub was played mostly by "mature" people.

This is no longer the case though as I often find people under 18 playing WoW (which is tecnically forbidden afaik)


Wow is rated teen afaik so you are allowed to play it from 12+ , we don't take members <18 anyway and the average age in our guild is probably somewhere around 28-30 so i don't get much in contact with younger ppl ... on the other side i wouldn't call our rooster "mature" without smiling :D
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Worldie » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:00 am

Well pugging felt much less horrible back in vanilla / tbc.

But then, maybe it was also because you weren't expecting other random people met in /4 to be heroic raiders back then.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nooska » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:47 am

Also back then there was social accountability to your actions - today, most people can get their kicks from non-accountable possibilities like LFR and LFD if they get too bad a rep, or they can just servertransfer.

@Lieris; I'll agree to disagree, and leave it there.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby samsara » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:03 am

<3 would love some sort of rating system, so you can see douchebags and avoid inviting them into pugs

i liked the system of openraid in cata but had some bad expiriences in mop with openraid (maybe because it's growing popularity) and don't use it anymore.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:53 am

Fridmarr wrote:Oh I agree that it's likely inevitable at some point, that seems to be the pattern, though it may not be for some time yet. And yes, it would be an interesting discussion on how WoW could monetize the game in a F2P model. I was just curious if the thought was that there really won't be subscription based games anymore, or with WoW out of the picture (or not nearly as popular as it is even now) if there is room for that model to still be successful.


I think that Bungie (Destiny) and Blizzard (Titan) not using a mandatory subscription for their new games is a sign that it has very much run its course for this gaming generation. If they don't feel that they can fill the vacuum WoW leaves behind then probably nobody can.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Kelerei » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:00 am

Worldie wrote:This is no longer the case though as I often find people under 18 playing WoW (which is tecnically forbidden afaik)


The game has a 13 age restriction here (we get the EU version).

Semi-related: I've got quite a large age-group spread in my 10-man group -- the youngest is 16, the oldest 58.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:41 am

Kelerei wrote:
Worldie wrote:This is no longer the case though as I often find people under 18 playing WoW (which is tecnically forbidden afaik)


The game has a 13 age restriction here (we get the EU version).

Semi-related: I've got quite a large age-group spread in my 10-man group -- the youngest is 16, the oldest 58.


I think in the US all that is required legally is that the 'use by minors' clause is satisfied. The ESRB rating of teen states it is suitable for 13+ while I believe the subscription technically requires an 18+ person to OK it.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:54 am

Worldie wrote:Well pugging felt much less horrible back in vanilla / tbc.

But then, maybe it was also because you weren't expecting other random people met in /4 to be heroic raiders back then.



I actually wonder (since I wasn't around then) about this, among other colorful recollections of the by-gone glory days.

Did the community at large just eventually become adverse to players still learning the ropes, and players who simply weren't as skilled? Or is it more of selective memories? Maybe both? I mean, I hear plenty of stories about how all the dungeon groups were T3h Aw3som3, and how everyone in heroics was uber leet. But I don't hear many stories like 'yeah, we took this new tank on who didn't know what they were doing and helped them out'.

Sadly, I have nothing to compare to, since I joined well after LFD was introduced in Wrath and had plenty of absolutely horrid experiences in it as a new tank... so to me, the game experience has always been finding the decent, patient and fun folk amongst the trolls and haters, and then finding ways to avoid the trolls and haters. But somehow I can't imagine these folks were a new phenomenon.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:36 am

benebarba wrote:
Worldie wrote:Well pugging felt much less horrible back in vanilla / tbc.

But then, maybe it was also because you weren't expecting other random people met in /4 to be heroic raiders back then.



I actually wonder (since I wasn't around then) about this, among other colorful recollections of the by-gone glory days.

Did the community at large just eventually become adverse to players still learning the ropes, and players who simply weren't as skilled? Or is it more of selective memories? Maybe both? I mean, I hear plenty of stories about how all the dungeon groups were T3h Aw3som3, and how everyone in heroics was uber leet. But I don't hear many stories like 'yeah, we took this new tank on who didn't know what they were doing and helped them out'.

Sadly, I have nothing to compare to, since I joined well after LFD was introduced in Wrath and had plenty of absolutely horrid experiences in it as a new tank... so to me, the game experience has always been finding the decent, patient and fun folk amongst the trolls and haters, and then finding ways to avoid the trolls and haters. But somehow I can't imagine these folks were a new phenomenon.


It's also different demographics in the game now, some with less social skills, and less experience with other "social" gaming. I think folks who grew up in the days of D&D and LAN parties were a bit better socially-wise in WoW, since in their prior gaming you could get punched if you were a troll in game.. :D
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:42 am

halabar wrote:It's also different demographics in the game now, some with less social skills, and less experience with other "social" gaming. I think folks who grew up in the days of D&D and LAN parties were a bit better socially-wise in WoW, since in their prior gaming you could get punched if you were a troll in game.. :D


Yeah, it is actually pretty interesting how hard a time 'that guy' can have finding a D&D group that will actually let them play with them. I've seen plenty of folks politely not invited back ;)
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:45 am

Your reputation was also highly at stake. If you were a dps and got blackballed for being a giant dick in groups (whether it be your attitude, your dps, your social skills, your ninja skills or whether or not you just left a group whenever you damn well felt like it) then you suffered the repercussions of seeing your name get shot down all over Trade for your bad behaviour. Which meant you were going to have a pretty hard time finding groups. Now? People can do whatever the fuck they like because it will have no bearing whatsoever on them getting a dungeon group run the next time they queue up for RDF or LFR.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:13 am

Yep if you had a horrible reputation in Classic/TBC, you weren't ever going to get a group. Certain people were pariahs on their realms and everyone had them on their ignore lists. This kept people in line pretty well and helped regulate AFKing, ninja looting, sabotage and bad manners because everyone knew the consequences of such behaviour. I am not saying it didn't happen at all but you had the means to pay them back for that ten fold as everyone read the realm forums and word of mouth spread very quickly.

I liked having a huge friend list of people who weren't in my guild but who I enjoyed doing dungeons with. It was a very social experience. Some people will moan about having to wait too long for groups but that was more to do with a lack of tanks than anything else and these days there are a lot more of them out there and they are a lot easier to play.

I had a great experience as a new tank in TBC because I was the sort of person who read up stat and ability guides first and I guess I was the sort of gamer that early WoW was really aimed at. It was the same with DPSers in that there were a lot of them out there so almost everyone tried to get at least a rudimentary knowledge of their class because they knew if they didn't, they would struggle to get into groups.

You remove these consequences and it's inevitable that the general player base will be less social and be of poorer ability. It has also created a gulf in ability between the heroic raiders (whose raids are as hard if not harder than ever) and everyone else making the step up even more difficult which in turn makes it even harder for the heroic guilds to recruit as there isn't any new blood coming through.

tl;dr there should be consequences to being an arsehole and/or being terrible at the game but there aren't any in contemporary WoW thanks to LFD/LFR and this has destroyed the community especially on a server level.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:23 am

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Join me Lieris! *rocks back and forth*
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:32 am

One mo...

*adopts 20 cats from the shelter, buys walking stick and a shawl from the charity shop*

Okay I am ready!

*starts rocking back and forth in tandem with Nika*
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:41 am

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:43 am

Nikachelle wrote:Your reputation was also highly at stake. If you were a dps and got blackballed for being a giant dick in groups (whether it be your attitude, your dps, your social skills, your ninja skills or whether or not you just left a group whenever you damn well felt like it) then you suffered the repercussions of seeing your name get shot down all over Trade for your bad behaviour. Which meant you were going to have a pretty hard time finding groups. Now? People can do whatever the fuck they like because it will have no bearing whatsoever on them getting a dungeon group run the next time they queue up for RDF or LFR.



Quite true. Once things went cross-realm, there was certainly a slow slide into asshatedness.

Of course, pre RDF and LFR were also the days where you were happy to get one dungeon done a night, if you were lucky. (The dungeons were longer too, but the pace of the content also supported that).

It's a changed world with cross-realm everything, and the increased pace of the content.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nooska » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:46 pm

You can keep the cats, but can you find one more chair? I wanna come hang out.

Also I agree that the early demographic was likely used to playing pen and paper games and LAN parties where you wanted to get invited back (to share the pirated games... erh.. I mean the porn.. erhh.. I mean the sodas, yup definately the sodas), so more skille dat actually behaving (I'm not very socially skilled, I'm actually socailly handicapped, but I've learned enough of what to do and what not to do, to generally stay on the "correct" side of the social divide - I'm an aspie, for those curious).

LFD and LFR was good for the game on a lot of levels, but it did definately make the "quiet douchebag" and "Loud prick" people have an easier time - honestly I wouldnt go back though...

*remembers waiting for 2 guildise to come online for an hour before trudging to the dungeon and spending 60 minute sin the heoric (if not more) while definately wiping to trash once or twice, as well as bosses every once in a while if someone screwed up.*

Yeah it was a more pleasent atmosphere, but it meant I could do maybe 5 or 6 dungeons per week, rather than do whatever I have the time for now.

Yeah, internet generation attention span (IGAS! coined here)
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:03 pm

Ultimately though the bad things that came with LFD/LFR greatly out weigh the good and they are two of the biggest reasons why the game's popularity is in free fall.

Blizzard thought they could retain all their existing players and bring in new ones, attracted to the idea of easy gear and easy progression but a lot of us have moved on because Heroic isn't worth the time investment when you can finish the raid week 1 on normal and being able to see all the raid content while auto attacking with no wipes is not retaining the newer players either. Not even pandering (hoho) to the Asian market with this expansion has grown the game. They greedily thought they could keep growing the game but they have fallen flat on their arse.

WoW is far from unsalvageable and all those lost subs are not all gone for good but as well as a F2P model they need to:

- Revamp the character models. Enough excuses, get this done!

- Base the next expansion somewhere that gets former WoW nerds excited (Emerald Dream or ocean based with Undermine, Kul Tiras, Zandalar etc).

- Have a big bad and make people want to kill him/her. A real bastard with a proper character arc who feels dangerous and who they can slap on the box. Deathwing was just a guy who changed the world overnight in a patch and sometimes killed your alts while out levelling but despite how poorly he was implemented, I think the idea of killing him kept more than a few people subscribed.

- Rethink the entire progression system. LFR/LFD, gone.

- Challenging dungeons (think Magister's Terrace) with worthwhile rewards coming out every raid tier, maybe even have them be an alternative progression path for non-raiders and as a pre-raid catch up system.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:08 pm

Oh and get rid of whoever thought it was a good idea to shovel dailies down everyone's throat while also removing faction championing via tabards.

Then change all the locks.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:10 pm

Sure... let's...

Eliminate casual content, and force socialization. No more random groups.

Make all dungeons take at least an hour to run, 3 is better.

Rehash old lore that new players don't care about.

Bound to be a winner. :roll:
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:13 pm

Lieris wrote:Oh and get rid of whoever thought it was a good idea to shovel dailies down everyone's throat while also removing faction championing via tabards.

Then change all the locks.


The way to fix dailies is make them weekly. Barrens is a step in the right direction. All the other capped stuff should be weekly, not daily. Even the farm. 7 sets of crops a week, and then you let it rest.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:24 pm

halabar wrote:Sure... let's...

Eliminate casual content, and force socialization. No more random groups.

Make all dungeons take at least an hour to run, 3 is better.

Rehash old lore that new players don't care about.

Bound to be a winner. :roll:

Aside from rehashing old lore, the rest was BC to a T. So, yep, sign me up for that please.

Why does everyone want to be able to just play this game on their own time? It's so much more enriching to play with people and to make new friends. Everything this game has gone towards it just abolishing all of that. Have we really become so damn anti-social that no one wants to make the effort anymore? Ugh.
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