Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby benebarba » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:34 am

Nikachelle wrote:
benebarba wrote:
Worldie wrote:It's still asians. WoW is not good enough for Asia, hence why they making several shifts there.
Too much F2p competition seeing WoW is payed on hours there.



Apparently not, or at least not entirely:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/08/01/activ ... scriber-l/

"Blizzard is working on making returning to the game easier for players who have left."

Totally going about it wrong imo.


Yep - though I actually am not entirely sure they are doing things just to that end, as opposed to 'letting people who are new to the genre get up and running quickly' that just happens to also let people who've come back get back in easier.

In my mind, it's hard to imagine folks leaving (for reasons aside from temporary ones), and suddenly being all 'ZOMG! I *gotta* get back into it'. Especially if your circle of friends left, your preferred server has turned into a ghost town, and the content simply isn't what you want.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Worldie » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:34 am

To be honest making "catchup" easy is a good thing. AS long as it doesn't turn in the wotlk/cata version, "farm 5 men till nausea and ignore everything from previous tiers".
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:54 pm

benebarba wrote:In my mind, it's hard to imagine folks leaving (for reasons aside from temporary ones), and suddenly being all 'ZOMG! I *gotta* get back into it'. Especially if your circle of friends left, your preferred server has turned into a ghost town, and the content simply isn't what you want.


I have a friend who did that recently, actually. I believe his rationale was that he had just spent like, a month studying for the bar exam, and wanted some nice familiar comfort food gaming to unwind with. This is despite our server being long since a ghost town and our guild being long since disbanded. The game is still just fun, and the easier it is to do Stuff, like raiding LFR, the easier it is for people like my friend to get a Scroll of Resurrection and just start having fun again.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Taeron » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:41 am

Sabindeus wrote:I have a friend who did that recently, actually. I believe his rationale was that he had just spent like, a month studying for the bar exam, and wanted some nice familiar comfort food gaming to unwind with. This is despite our server being long since a ghost town and our guild being long since disbanded. The game is still just fun, and the easier it is to do Stuff, like raiding LFR, the easier it is for people like my friend to get a Scroll of Resurrection and just start having fun again.


Depends on the perspective of fun, I guess. One of my friends quit a couple of months ago and I know he misses the game, but it's stuff like LFR and pet battles that are actually helping him stay away, knowing that that's what's waiting for him if he returns. I guess if you are looking for a game where you can just press random buttons and gear a char through it, WoW offers a comfortable zone for returning players. But then again, for that kind of fun, you can just run your lvl60 Diablo3 char through normal again.

My point is that I wish Blizzard would have a different approach for welcoming back old players. Most people I know, who left, are old time gamers. People age 33 and over, people who grew up playing games back when games were still a challenging and - most of all - immersive piece of entertainment. I honestly don't know what they can offer though, but I think it could be something more than just "everything is 50% easier and you gain gear 500% faster".

*shrugs*
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:44 am

Taeron wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I have a friend who did that recently, actually. I believe his rationale was that he had just spent like, a month studying for the bar exam, and wanted some nice familiar comfort food gaming to unwind with. This is despite our server being long since a ghost town and our guild being long since disbanded. The game is still just fun, and the easier it is to do Stuff, like raiding LFR, the easier it is for people like my friend to get a Scroll of Resurrection and just start having fun again.


Depends on the perspective of fun, I guess. One of my friends quit a couple of months ago and I know he misses the game, but it's stuff like LFR and pet battles that are actually helping him stay away, knowing that that's what's waiting for him if he returns. I guess if you are looking for a game where you can just press random buttons and gear a char through it, WoW offers a comfortable zone for returning players. But then again, for that kind of fun, you can just run your lvl60 Diablo3 char through normal again.

My point is that I wish Blizzard would have a different approach for welcoming back old players. Most people I know, who left, are old time gamers. People age 33 and over, people who grew up playing games back when games were still a challenging and - most of all - immersive piece of entertainment. I honestly don't know what they can offer though, but I think it could be something more than just "everything is 50% easier and you gain gear 500% faster".

*shrugs*


Rose colored goggles.... yeah, farming heroics for weeks (or months) for gear was SO much better than LFR.. :roll:

Retuning the game to where it's all hard, getting one heroic done a night was a success, needing to buy arrows and bullets, you were in awe of gear from raids... just not gonna happen. The pace of the game was slower then, and you were lucky with an expac every 2.5 years.

The overall direction should be clear since they announced that Titan will not be subscription. The game world is changing.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Taeron » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:16 pm

halabar wrote:Rose colored goggles.... yeah, farming heroics for weeks (or months) for gear was SO much better than LFR.. :roll:

Retuning the game to where it's all hard, getting one heroic done a night was a success, needing to buy arrows and bullets, you were in awe of gear from raids... just not gonna happen. The pace of the game was slower then, and you were lucky with an expac every 2.5 years.

The overall direction should be clear since they announced that Titan will not be subscription. The game world is changing.


Apparently I worded myself poorly in my post and somehow made an impression that, albeit never mentioning it, I was actually talking about farming heroics and how old times were better. I apologize, English is not my first language and perhaps words I used also mean something else. My actual thinking is only that over time, perhaps the game could offer something else as content besides raiding for dummies and that perhaps obtaining gear isn't everything this game can be about. Maybe adding new stuff to do in the game could be the key on how to bring the old players back.

But it's just my personal thinking based on the talks I have with my friend.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:38 pm

Taeron wrote:
halabar wrote:Rose colored goggles.... yeah, farming heroics for weeks (or months) for gear was SO much better than LFR.. :roll:

Retuning the game to where it's all hard, getting one heroic done a night was a success, needing to buy arrows and bullets, you were in awe of gear from raids... just not gonna happen. The pace of the game was slower then, and you were lucky with an expac every 2.5 years.

The overall direction should be clear since they announced that Titan will not be subscription. The game world is changing.


Apparently I worded myself poorly in my post and somehow made an impression that, albeit never mentioning it, I was actually talking about farming heroics and how old times were better. I apologize, English is not my first language and perhaps words I used also mean something else. My actual thinking is only that over time, perhaps the game could offer something else as content besides raiding for dummies and that perhaps obtaining gear isn't everything this game can be about. Maybe adding new stuff to do in the game could be the key on how to bring the old players back.

But it's just my personal thinking based on the talks I have with my friend.


well, ultimately the game for most people now is about grind for gear to raid (at whatever level you raid), the exploration and adventure of the ride is pretty well lost. For what you are describing, they need to slow the pace down, I don't think they can do that now.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Nooska » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:32 pm

Being a young gamer (only 33 - average age is 37, I saw in a newspaper a few weeks ago, referencing some study), I can relate to the thing of things getting easier. The thing is, I can see it as natural. I don't have the patience (or rather time) to play nintendohard games anymore, I need some games that I can get into and do okey-fine in, without a huuuge time investment. This is because of changes that has happened in my life over time. Heck back in teh day I though Mario 3 was awesome (no save function, no new lives when you lost them, just game over). Today I wouldn't pick up a game that had either of those "features" because I play to be entertained - I did so back then as well, but requirements for being entertained has changed, and without the ability to set aside marathon sessions to maybe get somewhere, I need the save function, and I need the "not game over, use a continue" function in games like mario - otherwise I won't start, as I know I will feel like I've waste my time.

In regards to wow, I found the difficulty of normal t14 to bee a bit too harsh - mostly due to a number of coinciding events (the loss of key mnembers of our cata raid team mostly), I wasnt' expecting to be able to pick up and be heroic raiders, that was fine (well it would be nice to touch heroics a bit at least), but the checks were too tight in normal too - and when they relaxed them the damage was done and the split had started.

*thinks* In reality this part belongs in the heroic raiders/lfr/flex thread.

I think Blizzard needs to have a think about what Normal is supposed to be. Currently its mostly a stepping stone to delay heroic raiders, and flex seems to be aimed at what used to be the normal crowd, which leaves normal somewhere in between heroic and normal, wnd without a real niche of its own.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby halabar » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Nooska wrote:Being a young gamer (only 33 - average age is 37, I saw in a newspaper a few weeks ago, referencing some study), I can relate to the thing of things getting easier. The thing is, I can see it as natural. I don't have the patience (or rather time) to play nintendohard games anymore, I need some games that I can get into and do okey-fine in, without a huuuge time investment. This is because of changes that has happened in my life over time. Heck back in teh day I though Mario 3 was awesome (no save function, no new lives when you lost them, just game over). Today I wouldn't pick up a game that had either of those "features" because I play to be entertained - I did so back then as well, but requirements for being entertained has changed, and without the ability to set aside marathon sessions to maybe get somewhere, I need the save function, and I need the "not game over, use a continue" function in games like mario - otherwise I won't start, as I know I will feel like I've waste my time.

In regards to wow, I found the difficulty of normal t14 to bee a bit too harsh - mostly due to a number of coinciding events (the loss of key mnembers of our cata raid team mostly), I wasnt' expecting to be able to pick up and be heroic raiders, that was fine (well it would be nice to touch heroics a bit at least), but the checks were too tight in normal too - and when they relaxed them the damage was done and the split had started.

*thinks* In reality this part belongs in the heroic raiders/lfr/flex thread.

I think Blizzard needs to have a think about what Normal is supposed to be. Currently its mostly a stepping stone to delay heroic raiders, and flex seems to be aimed at what used to be the normal crowd, which leaves normal somewhere in between heroic and normal, wnd without a real niche of its own.


Well ideally, you could really have separate progression paths for regular players and the "elite" players. The problem is I don't know if you can go back to that now. Genie is out of the bottle so to speak. Back in the day, leveling was a real adventure, and people didn't all have the expectation to make level cap in 3 days and start raiding the next. Things along the way were a challenge, and interesting. But that ship has long sailed. Perhaps Titan can recapture that. Or EQ Next.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:51 pm

Nooska wrote:Heck back in teh day I though Mario 3 was awesome (no save function, no new lives when you lost them, just game over). Today I wouldn't pick up a game that had either of those "features" because I play to be entertained - I did so back then as well, but requirements for being entertained has changed, and without the ability to set aside marathon sessions to maybe get somewhere, I need the save function, and I need the "not game over, use a continue" function in games like mario - otherwise I won't start, as I know I will feel like I've waste my time.


That's why you play the SNES port of Mario 3 instead; it has a save function. ;) Also a game over even in the NES game just boots you to the beginning of the world, it doesn't end the game but I understand the point you're getting at.

I need difficulty otherwise I feel completely disconnected from a game and my mind wanders into auto-pilot mode. If something is so easy that even people who don't otherwise play games can complete it, then I am not interested in doing it more than once (and having to do it again but with an extra add/debuff and more damage isn't compelling enough). It just becomes disposable entertainment. Conversely nearly 20 years later I will still go back and play Contra Hard Corps.

Fundamentally I don't see why we can't have the difficulty and progression of Classic/TBC with QOL improvements like dual spec, guild bank, having more than one viable spec per class, Jeeves, no longer having to level up weapon skill, raid markers, AOE looting etc. The WoW equivalent of putting the save feature into Mario 3.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:52 pm

Essentially because that would make them lose 90% of the playerbase Lieris.

Remember WoW is firstly a money business, and believe it or not, a very high percent of the playerbase (I read the % of heroic raiders is single digit) is composed by casuals who don't give a fuck of the challenge and just want to relax and / or unleash their stress upon mobs / enemy chars.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Lieris » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:17 pm

Worldie wrote:Essentially because that would make them lose 90% of the playerbase Lieris.

Remember WoW is firstly a money business, and believe it or not, a very high percent of the playerbase (I read the % of heroic raiders is single digit) is composed by casuals who don't give a fuck of the challenge and just want to relax and / or unleash their stress upon mobs / enemy chars.


Then why did TBC have more people paying $15 a month (prior to coming out in any Asia country) than the game does now with a global player base and variable payment models? Hardcore raiders were only a tiny percentage yet the game continued to grow. Obviously the game was newer and interacting with characters from WC3 is much more compelling than a silly easter egg race but it wouldn't have been so popular if stuff like not being skilled enough to raid Sunwell was so dreadful.

Ultimately with flying mounts, stripping the game world of any danger and sense of exploration, LFR and LFD Blizzard have either replaced the old user base with a new one or socially engineered people to expect to finish the game with minimal effort so I appreciate they would lose subscribers but isn't that already happening? If this model was really working they shouldn't be haemoraging subs. If people weren't so attached to their main character I bet they would be losing subs at an even greater rate.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Worldie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:13 pm

What would you do if you were Blizzard, accept the loss of a quarter of the player base over 4 years, or accomodate that 1% of heroic raiders and lose 99% of the playerbase within a couple months?.


I think your most correct line is
replaced the old user base with a new one
.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Taeron » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:46 pm

I don't know what the biggest reason is for people leaving WoW in such high numbers lately - is it just burnout after years of playing the same game or is the content that they feel is no longer giving them what they want - but as soon as they start talking about trying to get back old WoW gamers, I feel like just throwing gear at them won't do.

I think the old style gamer expects a little more from a fantasy game. Sure, it's nice if you can catch up quickly, but just that isn't an incentive enough to bring back previous subscribers because I doubt they left in the first place because they didn't get gear fast enough.

Maybe I'm just seeing this from a too subjective point of view, but Blizzard seems so darn careful - for lack of better word - when implementing something really NEW to the game, always falling back on one liners from official forums. I mean, sure, maybe things old MMO players are used to aren't neccessarely an efficient mechanics to obtain yet more gear, but they might add something to immersion and overall quality of the game world.

If the next expansion does turn out to be with a Burning Legion theme, I wonder if a change from killing oversized rabbits and teaching fish how to hold a shield will be at least a small appeal for the old WoW fans.
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Re: Blizzard Loses 600k Subscribers in 2 Months

Postby Thels » Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:04 am

Making it easier to catch up is not an incentive for players to return. It's to prevent players that returned from immediately leaving again, since it's too hard to catch up.

If you return now, but it takes you weeks-months to catch up to your friends and start raiding with them again, you're likely to quite the game again soon.
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